R+L=J v.35

[Belandra Waters]

DP

[J. Stargaryen]

Does Ice and Fire Ultimately Represent Jon, Jon and Dany, or Maybe Both?

The series title, A Song of Ice and Fire, undoubtedly conveys multiple layers of symbolism. However, in the end, I think it very well might have one meaning that trumps them all. I'm talking about the personification of Jon, or Jon and Dany. Those are my two main schools of thought, with a possibility that allows for both.

I've made mention here and there that I believe Jon will not discard his Targaryen heritage. I guess this means I'm in the Jon category. If he represents both Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen), then Dany doesn't really figure into the title. On the flip side are a bunch of smart people who think Jon will ignore his Targaryen roots. Viewed through the lens of the series title, this means the story is ultimately about Jon (Ice, Stark) and Dany (Fire, Targaryen). If that is the case, does one of them die? If yes, and if that someone is Dany, is it possible that we find ourselves realizing that Ice and Fire was ultimately representing Jon all along?

This resolution would arguably give the Ice and Fire metaphors the most bang for their buck, so to speak. First you'd have it represent all of the things it means besides Jon and Dany. Next it would symbolize the star-crossed kin simultaneously, until Dany dies. Finally it would represent Jon Snow becoming part Stark, part Targaryen, and possibly greater than both.

[Ygrain]

I say he's delusional because he seems to entirely ruled by the pursuit of a prophecy, which he continues to interpret incorrectly. He knew his father was becoming increasingly mad, yet decided to stall his plans to "make changes" and instead put forth his efforts into producing the third head. If he truly believed that Aegon was the PTwP, surely he wouldn't be saving the realm for a number of years yet, so why the rush to make sure there was a third head of the dragon? Maybe the realm's welfare should have come first.

Actually, with hindsight, Jon was not born a moment too soon, though. A couple of years later, he would be too young to do a thing, so Rhaegar did get it right, after all :-)

Does Ice and Fire Ultimately Represent Jon, Jon and Dany, or Maybe Both?

The series title, A Song of Ice and Fire, undoubtedly conveys multiple layers of symbolism. However, in the end, I think it very well might have one meaning that trumps them all. I'm talking about the personification of Jon, or Jon and Dany. Those are my two main schools of thought, with a possibility that allows for both.

I've made mention here and there that I believe Jon will not discard his Targaryen heritage. I guess this means I'm in the Jon category. If he represents both Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen), then Dany doesn't really figure into the title. On the flip side are a bunch of smart people who think Jon will ignore his Targaryen roots. Viewed through the lens of the series title, this means the story is ultimately about Jon (Ice, Stark) and Dany (Fire, Targaryen). If that is the case, does one of them die? If yes, and if that someone is Dany, is it possible that we find ourselves realizing that Ice and Fire was ultimately representing Jon all along?

This resolution would arguably give the Ice and Fire metaphors the most bang for their buck, so to speak. First you'd have it represent all of the things it means besides Jon and Dany. Next it would symbolize the star-crossed kin simultaneously, until Dany dies. Finally it would represent Jon Snow becoming part Stark, part Targaryen, and possibly greater than both.

According to the scene from HotU, Rahegar believed that the PTWP is a song of Ice and Fire, i.e. both aspects united in a single person. Unless he misinterpreted the prophecy, I think that Jon is the correct person for embodying the principle and that Dany is in this respect one big red herring, dragons or not. - But of course that she is important story-wise, but she is simply not the person the prophecy spoke about.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

According to the scene from HotU, Rahegar believed that the PTWP is a song of Ice and Fire, i.e. both aspects united in a single person. Unless he misinterpreted the prophecy, I think that Jon is the correct person for embodying the principle and that Dany is in this respect one big red herring, dragons or not. - But of course that she is important story-wise, but she is simply not the person the prophecy spoke about.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. It is interesting that Rhaegar seemed to think of "three heads of the dragon" as three people, and yet attributed the "song of ice and fire" to one person (in his case, Aegon).

And yes obviously Dany is important plot-wise, but in terms of prophecy, in my opinion, she's the Flaming Red Herring Above the World.

[J. Stargaryen]

According to the scene from HotU, Rahegar believed that the PTWP is a song of Ice and Fire, i.e. both aspects united in a single person. Unless he misinterpreted the prophecy, I think that Jon is the correct person for embodying the principle and that Dany is in this respect one big red herring, dragons or not. - But of course that she is important story-wise, but she is simply not the person the prophecy spoke about.

Right, at most Dany is one half of the Ice and Fire metaphor. If it's only one of them, it's definitely Jon.

I guess I almost see the metaphors building up to a point - a pyramid for example. At the top would be Jon alone. The next 'level' down would be Jon and Dany. Below that would be the 'other stuff' I&F symbolizes. Hopefully it's okay that I used a metaphor to describe a metaphor. ;)

[Old-Growth]

Hm... I weary of "red herring". Perhaps we need some additional phrases for admixture. How about "purple anchovy" or "green cod"?

[Old-Growth]

Well we only have parts of the prophecy, on the face of it, and the two parts we have appear to come from different versions, unless the Lightbringer part and the dragons from stone part are both in some rather longer and more accretive version.

To me it seems that the lightbringer account is older and is a prediction that the crisis will be dealt with by an Azor Ahai figure rather in the way that the original Azor Ahai did so, viz. with a magical sword plus whatever help he received from those he led. The other version with the waking of dragons seems to have a clear Valyrian influence.

I suspect that the red priests, including Melisandre, have smushed the two together.

But I also suspect that there might be another bit that is crucial to the understanding and is still up Martin's sleeve and that will only be produced when it fits the narrative....

[Old-Growth]

One reason for thinking that we do not have all of the prophecy is that the phrase "song of ice and fire" occurs nowhere in the parts (or versions) that we do have. The way that Rhaegar says that, in context, seems to mean that the phrase in question does appear in the prophecy as it is found in the materials Rhaegar consulted.

Now if that phrase does not actually appear in either version but is some later addendum like "prince that was promised", added on by, say, Septon Barth, or whomever, then it cannot be used as evidence pro or con Jon or Dany. So far as this goes I think we need to reserve judgment.

[corbon]

I'm sure Robert's crassness and exuberance were always present, but it is strongly suggested that the heavy drinking was something that came later, in response to him being so unhappy as king (and with having Cersei for a wife).

Actually nothing of the sort is suggested and it is strongly suggested that Robert was always that way.

He talks to Ned about drinking and wenching their way around the seven kingdoms.

He complains to Ned that Ned was 'never the boy you were'.

At Harrenhal, while Rhaegar is singing a sad song and Lyanna is sniffling to it, and others are dancing and generally partying, Robert is in a drinking game successfuly drinking another knight, Ser Richard Lonmouth IIRC (the knight of Skulls and Kisses) under the table. Note thats before he ever met Cersei. Ironically Robert was pissed enough to threaten Lyanna (as KotLT, unbeknownst to him) when Aerys declared her no friend to the King

Robert was a fit young athlete in the prime of life who probably trained/fought/rode 4+ hours per day. Young men like that can drink prodigiously and sweat it all off with few (immediately) apparent ill effects. Only later when they stop training so hard does the flab pile on and the effects become more obvious.

By the same token, Robert and Cersei's marriage was a dismal failure, as time proved out. They brought out the worst in each other. Robert was absent, coarse, violent, drunk, and unfaithful. Cersei was manipulative, cruel, and also unfaithful. With other spouses, who knows what might have been?

That is a perfect description of both of them before they were married though.

Robert was coarse, drunken and unfaithful (to anyone) his whole life, from the way he treated Stannis as a youth, to his litter of bastards that began well before even Lyanna was 'abducted', to his drunken boorishness at Harrenhal, to his whoring his way through an entire brothel while 'pining' for his lost betrothed during the war. And through his marriage.

Cersei was manipulative cruel and unfaithful, from her treatment of baby Tyrion, to her murder to her childhood companion, to her manipulation of Aerys into naming Jaime to the KG, and Jaime into accepting, to fucking Jaime on the morning of her wedding, through her wedding, to using sex to manipulate her pawns into doing her bidding as a widow and her casual cruelty through her rule.

They certainly didn;t change each other, and I can't see either of them changing their stripes after marrying anyone else either.

[Ygrain]

Hm... I weary of "red herring". Perhaps we need some additional phrases for admixture. How about "purple anchovy" or "green cod"?

Pink marlin for me, please.

[Old-Growth]

Thanks Corbon. As Lyanna was there at the tourney and probably saw or heard of Robert's shenanigans I rather doubt that improved Lyanna's view of him....

[Old-Growth]

Pink marlin for me, please.

How would you like that prepared?

[Black Wolf Smith]

@Mtn lion ok where did you get 21 months between HH and Jons birth? I like timelines and have not seen that one.

According to this Aegon is born in 282, while the Tourney at Harrenhall was in 281, The Year of the False Spring.

There was a timeline someone did a ways back. HH was after both Jaime L 15 name day ( I believe it was 3 weeks after) and Neds 18th which would be in the middle to late in the year 281.

I always get it into my head that Rhaegar abducted/ran off with Lyanna right after Harranhall.

I have to force myself to remember that is it only after he finds out that Elia cannot have more children that he chooses Lyanna. Kind of kills the love story aspect.

That is wrong. Elia was already caring Aegon or did so right after it. Aegon was born in 282. This would of course mean that Rhaegar started talking to Lyanna before he knew that Elia couldn't have anymore children.

[Old-Growth]

As for it killing the love story aspect, one can carry such feelings in one's heart for many a turn of the moon before it is possible to act on them.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

The actual time frame given is at the time of the sack to a month later. Jon is 8-9 months older than Daenerys who was conceived just beofre the sack.Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. Harrenhal was 21 months before the sack of King's Landing. Ashara is a very busy girl. She gets a three month break between pregnancies if she is to be Jon Snow's mother, not impossible, but I find it very unlikely.

Sorry but the actual quote I've seen from the GRRM email is

'Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.'

Which gives wiggle room at least.

The next part is why do you assume Ashara was pregnant after HH? From what I recall of what Barristan said was that she was pregnant at some point and miscarried....he thinks.

[youdontsnowme]

Hey guys, I'm 100% in team R+L=J, however I do have a few questions.

Why did Rhaegar have the three greatest knights of the Kingsguard defend Lyanna and Jon, and not Aegon and Rhaenys, who were left in the care of the Mad King. Did Rhaegar care more about Jon and Lyanna that Elia and his other children, and if the answers yes, then dose that mean Rhaegar intended Jon to be his heir?

Secondly, did Eddard somewhat resent Lyanna for running away with Rhaegar and forcing Eddard to live a lie, I ask this only because we see that Eddard has named all his children after his close friends and family, with the acceptation of his daughters. Now we know they aren't named after any of Catelyn's immediate family, and there is a possibility that one of them could be named after Eddard's mother, however neither of them are named after Lyanna, who from all accounts Eddard was close to.

Lastly, and this is more of a What if that an actual question, but if Robert had discovered the truth of Jon, would he have wanted him dead, and if so would Eddard have raised his banners against Robert to defend his sister's son?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Hey guys, I'm 100% in team R+L=J, however I do have a few questions.

Why did Rhaegar have the three greatest knights of the Kingsguard defend Lyanna and Jon, and not Aegon and Rhaenys, who were left in the care of the Mad King. Did Rhaegar care more about Jon and Lyanna that Elia and his other children, and if the answers yes, then dose that mean Rhaegar intended Jon to be his heir?

Well I can think of 2 reasons for this

1. Elia and the rest are in the Red Keep with Gold Cloaks and other defenders with them. All Lyanna has are the KG (though this is a little doubtful as he could have left other men)
   
2. The KG were sent there by Aerys to get Rhaegar back into the fight. Then either Rahegar orders them to stay or Aerys does as a form of insurance that Rhaegar isn't going to betray him once he gets to the Trident.
   

Secondly, did Eddard somewhat resent Lyanna for running away with Rhaegar and forcing Eddard to live a lie, I ask this only because we see that Eddard has named all his children after his close friends and family, with the acceptation of his daughters. Now we know they aren't named after any of Catelyn's immediate family, and there is a possibility that one of them could be named after Eddard's mother, however neither of them are named after Lyanna, who from all accounts Eddard was close to.

Hmm I hadn't thought of it that way but I don't think that's the case. The fact is we don't know that much about the famale side of the Starks so it's entirely possible that his Mum was called Sansa or Arya or indeed some other female ancestor

Lastly, and this is more of a What if that an actual question, but if Robert had discovered the truth of Jon, would he have wanted him dead, and if so would Eddard have raised his banners against Robert to defend his sister's son?

I don't think Robert would have wanted him dead as I don't think Robert actually wanted Rhaegars other children to be killed. Possibly relieved by it, it removed the decision of what to do with them, but it was the Lannisters who took the decision to kill the kids.

[Ygrain]

Why did Rhaegar have the three greatest knights of the Kingsguard defend Lyanna and Jon, and not Aegon and Rhaenys, who were left in the care of the Mad King. Did Rhaegar care more about Jon and Lyanna that Elia and his other children, and if the answers yes, then dose that mean Rhaegar intended Jon to be his heir?

Perhaps because Lyanna had no-one to defend her and Elia was well safe within a fortress with thousands of soldiers. Except for being used to blackmail Dorne, we do not have any account of her or the children being actually hurt by Aerys - and in this case, the KG would have been no use, anyway, since they would have to obey the king.

Secondly, did Eddard somewhat resent Lyanna for running away with Rhaegar and forcing Eddard to live a lie, I ask this only because we see that Eddard has named all his children after his close friends and family, with the acceptation of his daughters. Now we know they aren't named after any of Catelyn's immediate family, and there is a possibility that one of them could be named after Eddard's mother, however neither of them are named after Lyanna, who from all accounts Eddard was close to.

I don't think it was resentment, rather, such remembrance of Lyanna would have been very painful for him, as he is clearly traumatized by her death even all those years later. He might even be worried that using the name would be bad luck.

Lastly, and this is more of a What if that an actual question, but if Robert had discovered the truth of Jon, would he have wanted him dead, and if so would Eddard have raised his banners against Robert to defend his sister's son?

I think he would do what Davos did - send Jon to safety and then subject himself to Robert's judgement.

[MtnLion]

Pink marlin for me, please.

Sea Monkey!

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

A little pink shrimp.