Heresy 31

[Little Wing]

The only thing that comes to mind, and it won't help much, is the left brain/right brain stuff... :dunno: *puts thinking cap on*

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

In a general sense this may be the origin of bloodraven's skinchaging to birds for intelligence gathering, but I had hoped it ran deeper.

[Uncat]

Yay, Uncat´s back (my version of a happy dance). :kiss: We missed you.

Hi Lykos, so happy to meet you again, thanks for the dance!

[Uncat]

My theories for the Pact included three parties. I determined that the Children gave obsidian daggers on behalf of the White Walkers since they would be unable to touch them. The First Men provided their children as wards, but I could not think of something that the Children of the Forest would provide. I think it would be important for each party to provide something so that all three parties would feel "safe".

I don't believe the timeline is accurate, so I also don't believe that the Wall was built after the Pact. It makes more sense to me that the Wall wasn't built until after the Andal invasion, and that they used their magic to enslave the giants to build the Wall as a prison with the guards being the Night's Watch. This would explain why the majority of the Night's Watch swears to the Seven.

There is one thing that troubles me, when ever we assume, that the wall was build brick on brick by force of muscles (even giant muscles). There is not nearly enough water around. Some weeks ago I recived the new set of maps. They show the lands around and north of the Wall in much greater detail. But still there are neither rivers or lakes around the Wall (and by around I mean the strech of lands within some fifty or sixty miles north an south of the Wall) I'm sure there is the odd pond, rivulett or well there. But nothing, that Georg would have bothered to ad an surly enough nothing, that would account for the four or five cubic kilometers of ice, which went into it.

On the other hand, GRRM has the people in the books telling, that this is how the Wall was build. So why didn't he add the source of all that ice? just saying, it troubles me deeply.

I don't see why you wouldn't taste some blood if your throat was cut since the average tongue is 4 inches long and extends past your uvula down to the top of the pharynx. Some blood is bound to spurt, in all directions.

You got me there :( Point taken.

I had a thought that perhaps the name "Blackwood" came as a result of a family feud. I am wondering if the Blackwoods were once part of the Bracken family and that they had split off over their loyalties during the Andal invasion. Since this poisoned weirwood is on their property and the Blackwoods still worship the old gods, they wouldn't have been the ones to have poisoned it. If you're split off from your family you're referred to as the "black sheep", so adding this all together makes me think they were given or chose for themselves "Blackwood" in memory of this separation.

Yeah, this Xxxwood thing. I noticed, that there are a lot of old families called Somethingwood (Lemonwood, Yronwood, Blackwood - we listetd them once and it was about 15 or 20 of them). My current guess is, that this is connected with the pact. The children conceded man the plains and claimed the Woods for themselfs. So the Woodbyname families could be either families predating the pact - i.e. first man who settled in certain woods. Or those families are those who connected most closly with the children, intermarried and thus gained the right to settle in the woods claimed by that specific branch, family, clan or whatever of the children. I'm inclined to go with the second idea, because it would explain the closeness of the Blackwoods to the Old Gods and their raven tree.

[Uncat]

Or, to add to my post, those families couldhave been families which took up the side of the children during the war. That would explain why those families more then often are mentioned in the context of some feud with another first man family going back a thousand years or more.

[Toccs]

I'm thinking he was actually the trueblood Stark that snuck south of the Wall, impregnated Edwyle's sister or niece, and also stole the horn that the Andals used to enslave the giants and build the Wall. Then, took the horn back north of the Wall and hid it. He was likely killed before anyone could find the hiding spot of the horn.

If someone were to find the horn, it would break any spells used on the Wall.

Edwyle? As in Ned Stark's grandfather? I'm sorry but you have the timelines really mixed up there. I question the ancient timelines given as much as anybody, but I think it's pretty universally agreed that the histories from after the Conquest are not in doubt.

[Black Crow]

There is one thing that troubles me, when ever we assume, that the wall was build brick on brick by force of muscles (even giant muscles). There is not nearly enough water around. Some weeks ago I recived the new set of maps. They show the lands around and north of the Wall in much greater detail. But still there are neither rivers or lakes around the Wall (and by around I mean the strech of lands within some fifty or sixty miles north an south of the Wall) I'm sure there is the odd pond, rivulett or well there. But nothing, that Georg would have bothered to ad an surly enough nothing, that would account for the four or five cubic kilometers of ice, which went into it.

On the other hand, GRRM has the people in the books telling, that this is how the Wall was build. So why didn't he add the source of all that ice? just saying, it troubles me deeply.

According to legend it was from frozen lakes and if desparate I dare say you could argue they're not there anymore because they went into the Wall, but that ignores their being filled up again each spring. More to the point I'm still unhappy with the logistics of cutting and transporting large enough blocks of ice in the first place, let along lifting and slotting them into place. Its not like working with stone.

We're looking at legends created by people (the Watch) who had nothing to do with the building of it - by great magic.

Yeah, this Xxxwood thing. I noticed, that there are a lot of old families called Somethingwood (Lemonwood, Yronwood, Blackwood - we listetd them once and it was about 15 or 20 of them). My current guess is, that this is connected with the pact. The children conceded man the plains and claimed the Woods for themselfs. So the Woodbyname families could be either families predating the pact - i.e. first man who settled in certain woods. Or those families are those who connected most closly with the children, intermarried and thus gained the right to settle in the woods claimed by that specific branch, family, clan or whatever of the children. I'm inclined to go with the second idea, because it would explain the closeness of the Blackwoods to the Old Gods and their raven tree.

I'm not sure about the settling and intermarrying, but broadly I agree. I think the simpler explanation is that in Maester Luwin's history we're told that after the Pact the Children and the First Men lived togetherr in harmony and in time some adopted the religion of the Old Gods, so perhaps some of those families signified their conversion to the Old Gods of the woods by adding wood to their name. Not all of them did of course, with the Starks being a case in point, but then there's something funny about them anyway...

[Black Crow]

Edwyle? As in Ned Stark's grandfather? I'm sorry but you have the timelines really mixed up there. I question the ancient timelines given as much as anybody, but I think it's pretty universally agreed that the histories from after the Conquest are not in doubt.

Indeed, and no reason to interfere with recent genealogy either, especially as we're talking about living memory.

What is interesting, is that Bael isn't one of Old Nan's stories.

[Uncat]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the obsidian was a red herring, and steel is effective against the others, you just have to land an actual attack, which we have not seen happen yet?

Yepp, I'm pretty sure, that the obsidian is a red herring. For once, the magical wappon is handed to the heros much to soon (in comparisson to how fantasy usualy works). Then it is nice, that it has a quite crushing effect on White Walkers, but what good is a magic blade, if you never get in touch with the enemy. Unless the Nightwatch invents guns to fill the air with clouds of obsidian shrapnell, the will never get near enough to really fight the Others with obsidian blades. So let's just burry the dream of a last stand of the happy few with their dragonglas blades against waves and waves of White Walkers until the last of the attacers dissolves into mist.

Like Black Crow I'm even sure, that the one hundred obsidian daggers thing did have noing todo with the WW. It was just a symbolic exchange of wappons with the ex-foe to renew the pact every year.

As for the timelines:

Someplace in the teens of Heresy we managed to pin the date of Nymerias war to about a thousand years ago (Arianna mentiones this while imprisioned in her tower cell). And from Tyrions voyage through the lands of the Rhoynne we know, the distribution of the population in relation to the expanding empire of Valyria.

At some point the Valyrians pressed north up the river and west and thus pressed the Ryonnars from their homes. They evaded to the northwest, thus deslocating (along with the Valyrians following them) the Andals. Those moved farther west, crossed the narrow sea and entered westeros.

We supposed that there were some centuries or even a thousand years of slow and rather "peacefull" imigration, where the Andal nobles would fight down the local first men rulers and then marry into their families as it seems to have happened in the Vale.

But some thousand years ago, the Valyrians mounted a large campaign (something like Ceasars war in Goule, which brought him from the very south to the shores of Britain with in a few years.) That attack pushed the remaining Rhyonnares and Andals into the sea. Nymeria went south and landed in Dorne while other tribes and their nobles headed to other places along the shores of Westeros.

(On a sidenote there is a red hering here: We are so used to think of the Rhyonnares as riverpeople, that we imagine them building ships and going down the Ryonne making for the sea and then for Westeros. But that would never have worked. The Rhyonne crosses the heartlands of the Valyrian empire, meeting the sea at Volantis, which seems to have been something like the second capital of the empire.

So what actually happened is, that the Rhyonnares went west by foot and carriage, crossing into the lands of the Andals. The Andals may even have fought them, pushing them south into the now disputed lands, where they finaly build those thousends of ships. This would also explain, why Nymeria ended up in Dorne instead of the Vale, around Kings Landing or in the Stormlands)

Anyway, that events would have triggered the actuall invasion, when the Andals came in force and within decades overan Westeros all the way up to the Neck, where the Kings of Winter managed to stop them at Moat Cailin.

Back to the point:

Thus we pinned the Andal invasion to about a thousand years or more, which would be some 800 to 1500 years ago, considering, that the Martells were involved in Nymerias war and still are around).

But if the Wall was build after the Andal invasion - after the Andals reached the far North - this would mean, that it was build in almost historical times, some three- to fivehundred years before the conquest. At least the Faith (via their septons at the Wall), the Maesters (dito) and the Starks would have more or less reliable accounts of the building of the Wall.

So yeah, timelines are blurry, but the Wall is one of the oldes structures in Westeros and its raising is lost in the mysts of time. I don't belive a bit of the legends Martin build arround it, but one: The raising of the Wall is somehow linked to the Starks raising into the power in the North

That would be the grain of truth in the legends of Bran the Builder building both the Wall and Winterfell: He was somehow involved in the events leading to the Wall (not building it) and he brought house Stark into rulership in the North as the first King of Winter, thus metaphoricaly building Winterfell (and maybe even building at oldest keep from which Bran the Greenseer fell down).

[Toccs]

Indeed, and no reason to interfere with recent genealogy either, especially as we're talking about living memory.

What is interesting, is that Bael isn't one of Old Nan's stories.

Well I suspect that he is and he isn't. Someone, (I think it's Jon or possibly Ned) thinks about the past King's Beyond the Wall lists "Raymun Redbeard, the brother kings Gendel and Gorne and before them there was a man named Bael". So he is known about in the North at least but obviously the story is very different.

[Black Crow]

Well I suspect that he is and he isn't. Someone, (I think it's Jon or possibly Ned) thinks about the past King's Beyond the Wall lists "Raymun Redbeard, the brother kings Gendel and Gorne and before them there was a man named Bael". So he is known about in the North at least but obviously the story is very different.

Yes and no - Jon knows of him as an ancient historical figure

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I still think Bael the Bard is baloney story, but there is that pregnant woman begging for revenge in the godswood that Bran sees. It would be just the thing for a bard to go and sugarcoat the whole story, when he may be the villain after all. I'm specifically currious about the chronology since I think there is a good chance that the guy making weirwood arrows is Brandon Snow, the bastard brother to King Torrhen.

[Uncat]

@Black Crow

Yepp, I gave up the vrick and mortar thing long ago. The logistics bother me, this the more, as it would only be possible to build the Wall during winter, because only then there would be enough frozen water (packed snow, if you want, not ice) around. But the way winters are described no warmblooded creature of Westeros - how ever well adapted it may be to the climate) will be able to build such a thing under such conditions. And it has to be winter, as the maps show: The Wall was not build in a permafrost region. We have wast forrest with deep rooting trees. Sure winters are bad up there, but during summer the snow completly melts away and even the ice in the ground melts deep enough to allow the trees to grow. There is now way in hell for a structure like this survive thousands of summers without big, big magic.

Just adding, we are on the same page here anyway

[Uncat]

What the.... um... who are you people??! :stunned:

On the other hand, a heretic must needs know a bit of self defense and such .... right?

Right? :worried:

Right :D

[Uncat]

Even Samwell was unconvinced, as are the Septons, and I reserve the right to remain unconvinced as well. :tantrum:

LOL

What an evil minded bunch we are!

"Black" still says to me that they were outcasts from their family much like the Blackfish. The only thing different about Craster is that Ygritte says he bears a "heavy curse". I don't have any ideas yet on what that means, but I'm not placing him in the same category as Brynden/Bloodraven or Mance.

Right, that curse is very Craster-specific and something people seem to know and talk about.

[Uncat]

Snip

Black of blood implied to me either bastardy or having killed one's own relative(s). Both of which work for both Crater and Bryn Blackwood.

Well according to the Rat King's the Gods are ok with almost everything. They only frown upon breaking the guest right - that's when the shit hits the fan, as far as they are concerned. While kinslaying on the other hand is frowned upon to, but it seems to happen quite a lot without invoking heavy curses

[Melifeather]

Edwyle? As in Ned Stark's grandfather? I'm sorry but you have the timelines really mixed up there. I question the ancient timelines given as much as anybody, but I think it's pretty universally agreed that the histories from after the Conquest are not in doubt.

Indeed, and no reason to interfere with recent genealogy either, especially as we're talking about living memory.

What is interesting, is that Bael isn't one of Old Nan's stories.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but it seems that I must in order to defend myself. We are all anticipating with baited breath the fourth installment in the Dunk and Egg series, the She-Wolves of Winterfell. http://grrm.livejournal.com/225206.html

A little of the story has been leaked, so we do know that it includes an ailing Lord Stark with no male heir, but plenty of female Starks. The Dunk and Egg stories take place 70-80 years prior to the current story, so which Lord Stark seems to apply? Lets look at the House Stark family tree: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark

Hmm...who probably lived 70-80 years ago with lots of females around him.....hmmm......oh wait, it looks like Edwyle has an unnamed sister with three daughters!

[Melifeather]

To add to the above...if Lord Edwyle Stark had no male heir, then it seems logical to conclude that Rickard is not his natural son.

[Melifeather]

...Anyway, that events would have triggered the actuall invasion, when the Andals came in force and within decades overan Westeros all the way up to the Neck, where the Kings of Winter managed to stop them at Moat Cailin.

Back to the point:

Thus we pinned the Andal invasion to about a thousand years or more, which would be some 800 to 1500 years ago, considering, that the Martells were involved in Nymerias war and still are around).

But if the Wall was build after the Andal invasion - after the Andals reached the far North - this would mean, that it was build in almost historical times, some three- to fivehundred years before the conquest. At least the Faith (via their septons at the Wall), the Maesters (dito) and the Starks would have more or less reliable accounts of the building of the Wall.

So yeah, timelines are blurry, but the Wall is one of the oldes structures in Westeros and its raising is lost in the mysts of time. I don't belive a bit of the legends Martin build arround it, but one: The raising of the Wall is somehow linked to the Starks raising into the power in the North

That would be the grain of truth in the legends of Bran the Builder building both the Wall and Winterfell: He was somehow involved in the events leading to the Wall (not building it) and he brought house Stark into rulership in the North as the first King of Winter, thus metaphoricaly building Winterfell (and maybe even building at oldest keep from which Bran the Greenseer fell down).

The Wall cannot be as old as they say. They say Jon Snow is the 998th Lord Commander, but Sam could only validate 667.

Edited: for math

[Tyryan Lannister]

Anything enlightening from Craster or Mance's biographies?

From Mance: nothing new

From Craster: "while leaving his infant sons and grandsons for the Others to claim". So at least it's confirmed he his "sacrificing" to the Others