Heresy 31

[Melifeather]

No Ser Leftwich aint mixed up. Aemon is indeed Mance and Dalla's son, while Monster is Craster and Gilly's. That bit's straightforward. What's complicating things is the uncertainty as to what Sam means when he refers to Aemon as Craster's grandson.

Gilly is holding Aemon, not Monster, when Sam makes the comment that he's Mance's son and Craster's grandson. Ser Leftwich has corrected his post.

It's a mysterious comment. With over, what 600+ characters, you'd think GRRM would make a mistake somewhere.

[Ser Leftwich]

Gilly is holding Aemon, not Monster, when Sam makes the comment that he's Mance's son and Craster's grandson. Ser Leftwich has corrected his post.

It's a mysterious comment. With over, what 600+ characters, you'd think GRRM would make a mistake somewhere.

I was mixed up but corrected it.

My bad. (It just does not sounds as good as mea culpa.)

[Black Crow]

Just an afterthought: Gilli, Dalla, Dalla, Gilli...

Gilly is short for Gillyflower, so what would Dalla be short for - Dahlia? :leaving:

[Toccs]

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but it seems that I must in order to defend myself. We are all anticipating with baited breath the fourth installment in the Dunk and Egg series, the She-Wolves of Winterfell. http://grrm.livejour...com/225206.html

A little of the story has been leaked, so we do know that it includes an ailing Lord Stark with no male heir, but plenty of female Starks. The Dunk and Egg stories take place 70-80 years prior to the current story, so which Lord Stark seems to apply? Lets look at the House Stark family tree: http://awoiaf.wester...php/House_Stark

Hmm...who probably lived 70-80 years ago with lots of females around him.....hmmm......oh wait, it looks like Edwyle has an unnamed sister with three daughters!

The ailing Lord Stark is Lord Beron Stark, who died from injuries he recieved after fighting Dagon Greyjoy's Ironborn. In The Sworn Sword Dunk explciltly says that he and Egg are traveling North to answer Beron Stark's call to arms.

Edwyle did not have no male hier, because he had a child Rickard Stark, Ned's father.

[Melifeather]

The ailing Lord Stark is Lord Beron Stark, who died from injuries he recieved after fighting Dagon Greyjoy's Ironborn. In The Sworn Sword Dunk explciltly says that he and Egg are traveling North to answer Beron Stark's call to arms.

Edwyle did not have no male hier, because he had a child Rickard Stark, Ned's father.

You must be skimming posts because I've already been corrected, and I agree it must be Beron, which would make Edwyle his daughter's son.

[hotweaselsoup]

Gilly is short for Gillyflower, so what would Dalla be short for - Dahlia? :leaving:

Dallas (as in Cowboys), matched up with Mance "Oakland" Rayder :drunk:

[Toccs]

You must be skimming posts because I've already been corrected, and I agree it must be Beron, which would make Edwyle his daughter's son.

Yeah I saw that, my bad. These Heresy threads sure move fast don't they.

[Lykos]

Yes, and a sister of Edwyle´s "father" (I think it was actually his mother, but father is the oficial story) married a Vale lord. That ledme to the questionwether some secrets of the Starks could have been kept there, that died in Winterfell with Lyanna and her mother.

Edited because - gah this is complicated.

[Lykos]

Ser Leftwich, since you seem to have missed my "rubbish" list, I´ve tried to make it more clear.

• (1) the summer that ends in ADwD. That´s actually autumn that´s ending. The white raven in Dance announces the beginning of winter. The white raven that announces the end of Summer arrives during the prologue of Clash.
  

"This one (white raven) came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory."

• "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.” Ser Arlan in the Hedge Knight. The last dragon died 155
  
• Hedge Knight 208
  
• spring sickness 209
  
• (2) the is a summer mentioned/occurring in The Sword Sword. Sworn Sword hot summer 211 (drought in the Reach).
  
• Mystery Knight 212
  
• "To be sure, King Maekar's (221 - 233) summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter." Pycelle to Ned in Game
  
• Summerhall tragedy 259
  
• (3) Tyrion talks about a season change when he was young. "How many winters have you seen?"(september 298)He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember." "And all of them short." "As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter (274), a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring. "When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that." Mormont talking to Tyrion in Game.
  
• (4) There is a winter ending around the time of the Robellion (might be the same as 3). Robert´s rebellion lasted from 282 - 283. 281 was the year of the false spring so I guess the true spring started about 284 AL.
  

I remember it being mentioned that the last winter was short and mild by comparison, though now that I realised Tyrion experinced eight or nine winters, I think the last one must have ended sooner making spring longer. Maybe the false spring is the reason Tyrion can´t remember wether he saw eight or nine winters, or he´s not sure wether to count the one he was born in and has no memory of.

[Ser Leftwich]

Ser Leftwich, since you seem to have missed my "rubbish" list, I´ve tried to make it more clear.

snip

Thanks for this.

Edit to add:

Tyrion is 24 or 25 in AGoT when talking to Mormont. He has seen 8 or 9 winters. The current summer is 9 years running.

Therefore, from Tyrion being born to 15, we have 8 or 9 winters over 15 years. An average of ~1 year of summer to ~1 year of winter. Which is really not that bad.

In typing this, I have completely forgotten my point. :bang:

[Uncat]

As in:

Sam: "Hey Gilly, tell me more about what went on at Craster's House of Incest and theme park?"

Gilly: "Oh, interesting event, some famous wilding Mance something or other stole away with my sister/aunt/cousins Dalla and Val a few months ago."

More or less :)

[Uncat]

Ser Leftwich, since you seem to have missed my "rubbish" list, I´ve tried to make it more clear.

• (1) the summer that ends in ADwD. That´s actually autumn that´s ending. The white raven in Dance announces the beginning of winter. The white raven that announces the end of Summer arrives during the prologue of Clash.
  

• "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.” Ser Arlan in the Hedge Knight. The last dragon died 155
  
• Hedge Knight 208
  
• spring sickness 209
  
• (2) the is a summer mentioned/occurring in The Sword Sword. Sworn Sword hot summer 211 (drought in the Reach).
  
• Mystery Knight 212
  
• "To be sure, King Maekar's (221 - 233) summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter." Pycelle to Ned in Game
  
• Summerhall tragedy 259
  
• (3) Tyrion talks about a season change when he was young. "How many winters have you seen?"(september 298)He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember." "And all of them short." "As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter (274), a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring. "When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that." Mormont talking to Tyrion in Game.
  
• (4) There is a winter ending around the time of the Robellion (might be the same as 3). Robert´s rebellion lasted from 282 - 283. 281 was the year of the false spring so I guess the true spring started about 284 AL.
  

I remember it being mentioned that the last winter was short and mild by comparison, though now that I realised Tyrion experinced eight or nine winters, I think the last one must have ended sooner making spring longer. Maybe the false spring is the reason Tyrion can´t remember wether he saw eight or nine winters, or he´s not sure wether to count the one he was born in and has no memory of.

On a sidenote: The returning winter after the false spring can't have been that bad. Ned managed to raise the North to arms and bring the army south. And the war of the rebellion was a winter war, but no one seems to remeber it as such (neither Robert nor Jaimie, Ned or Connington ever spend one thought on snow, cold or ice when remebering the war).

[alienarea]

On a sidenote: The returning winter after the false spring can't have been that bad. Ned managed to raise the North to arms and bring the army south. And the war of the rebellion was a winter war, but no one seems to remeber it as such (neither Robert nor Jaimie, Ned or Connington ever spend one thought on snow, cold or ice when remebering the war).

Ned surely spent a few thoughts on Snow and Ice. Don't know about Cold, though. Mayhaps they caught him. ;-)

[Uncat]

I guess Cold got them one time or another

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

On a sidenote: The returning winter after the false spring can't have been that bad. Ned managed to raise the North to arms and bring the army south. And the war of the rebellion was a winter war, but no one seems to remeber it as such (neither Robert nor Jaimie, Ned or Connington ever spend one thought on snow, cold or ice when remebering the war).

I don't think its literally a false spring. I think it refers to the promise of happy days to come with his best friend marrying his sister, and his brother getting married as well, and potentially his relationship with Ashara.

[Black Crow]

There's an interesting reference as well to Spring in Storm of Swords, when Jon is explaining to Ygritte why the Gift is deserted:

His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings.... "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."

His use of the phrase rather suggests that the last of the projected books will see a proper resolution of the story - that a dream of Spring is planning for the Spring rather than merely hoping that one day it will happen.

[Uncat]

I don't think its literally a false spring. I think it refers to the promise of happy days to come with his best friend marrying his sister, and his brother getting married as well, and potentially his relationship with Ashara.

Do we have other people then Robert and Ned use the term "false spring" or is it just them? I can't remeber it. Though I seem to remeber Meera using it in the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Black Crow]

"Here was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him"

Sounds like a definite event and tied to the tourney at Harrenhal which would place it in 282

[redriver]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but has anyone found the way this winter weather has developed a bit odd?

You would expect true winter to descend from the north.But the snows seem to have originated at Winterfell and radiated in all directions from there.

Maybe that's not the case,or I'm reading too much into it.

[Black Crow]

"Here was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him"

Sounds like a definite event and tied to the tourney at Harrenhal which would place it in 282

Thinking just a little further that would be consistent with the rebellion being a winter one. The sun comes out for a bit, everybody cheers up and organises a tourney, thinking its the spring came, and then as with all sporting events it starts to rain...