Heresy 31

[Lykos]

Here is my rubbish list.

The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.”

The last dragon died 155 Hedge Knight 208 spring sickness 209 Sworn Sword hot summer211 Mystery Knight 212

"To be sure, King Maekar's (221 - 233) summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter. Summerhall tragedy 259 "How many winters have you seen?"(september 298)He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember." "And all of them short." "As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter (274), a terrible cruel one that the maesters

said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring.

"When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that."

[Little Wing]

Imma sit this one out. As I said before, right brain "thinker" here - can't analyze shit :dunno: But I am curious what you guys come up with...

[Ser Leftwich]

Back in Heresy 30, there was some talk about Small Paul and the blade that the WW drops.

I had a thought about the return of Small Paul during the attack on Sam and Gilly. It comes up that the rest of the wights are just eating the horse, but Small Paul is more task oriented, namely going for Craster Jr.

It occurs to me that Small Paul being more directed toward Craster Jr. might be because he was killed by a WW and not by a wight.

To apply this to Waymar Royce, the only other person we know was killed by WW, I can only think that he really didn't like Will.

I don't have anything further, but I thought it might be an idea to throw around.

[Uncat]

From Mance: nothing new

From Craster: "while leaving his infant sons and grandsons for the Others to claim". So at least it's confirmed he his "sacrificing" to the Others

There is still this one odd line in Feast, when Sam and Gilly decide on the name of Gilly's baby. Sam there refers to the kid as Mance's son and Craster's grandson. This would link them. Though I know, that this line has been and still is intensly discussed (is it an editorial mistake, if not, what else could it mean and so forth)

[Lykos]

Uncat, I think it means that Sam knows that Mance´s son will grow up as Gilly´s,thus making him Craster´s grandson. I just can´t imagine who´d have told Sam, do you think Gilly had knowledge of Craster´s sons.

I personally stick to my idea that Mance is Qorgyle´s son until proven wrong, though I like the idea Bloodraven being Mance´s father too, maybe he was as a son to Bloodraven?

I think Craster´s father maybe was a Stark of the Watch, giving him bits of the Stark magic, but putting him outside of he line of inheritance.

ETA: A little more on the last winter, though now that I realised Tyrion experinced eight or nine winters, I think the last one must have ended sooner making spring longer. Maybe the false spring is the reason Tyrion can´t remember wether he saw eight or nine winters, or he´s not sure wether to count the one he was born in and has no memory of.

[Melifeather]

Ser Leftwich, that´s what I meant. After means more recent. Rickard was born around 240, so Edwyle could have been born 220 (or earlier)to Beron´s daughter. Darn that undermines one of the reasons for my theory, for which it´d have been necessary that the Bael fight occured 228 or later (till 233). Unless it took 8 years... oh wait, say Edwyle was born 215 then he could have killed his father/Bael at age 17/18 in 232. My idea was based on this thought and the idea that the Wildlings gathered together after long summers to attack the Wall.

Edited to complete sentence.

I'm sure that if it turns out Edwyle is not Beron's natural son, they would have hid his true paternity. It'll be interesting to see how he is presented so that he is legitimized. But, I also agree that there is a layering effect going on in that similar stories have played out throughout history so that the timeline gets very confusing.

Has anyone ever done a cataloging of the lengths of the known summer and winters?

Ones I can think of:

(1) the summer that ends in ADwD

(2) the is a summer mentioned/occurring in The Sword Sword

(3) Tyrion talks about a season change when he was young

(4) There is a winter ending around the time of the Robellion (might be the same as 3)

This seems relevant to Lykos' though direction and I am curious.

The only ones that come to mind are when Tyrion mentions how many winters he's seen, and Bran being a summer child hasn't known a winter yet. Boy, if someone did do a catalog, that would have been a lot of work and I would love to see it.

Imma sit this one out. As I said before, right brain "thinker" here - can't analyze shit :dunno: But I am curious what you guys come up with...

I think that is my problem, right brain that is, since I have a hard time explaining and selling my ideas. I don't go into long, analytical posts, but rather prefer shorter to the point answers that seem to explain much to me, but leave other readers confused. :dunno:

[Melifeather]

Here's the text from Feast:

(Gilly) "We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he's old enough, not now. We could."

(Sam) "Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though."

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had non of Sam's craven blood. "yes. Call him that."

Has GRRM ever cleared this up, because it sounds like Craster is Mance's father.

[Melifeather]

Or was Dalla Craster's daughter?

[Lykos]

But how/why would Sam know about Dalla?

[Melifeather]

Or since Craster's daughter, Gilly has adopted Mance's son as her own, technically he's Craster's grandson?

[Ser Leftwich]

How would Sam know/have learned either possibility?

[Melifeather]

How would Sam know/have learned either possibility?

Wha??? That last one is a given. Sam knows Gilly is Craster's daughter, and he knows the babe is Mance's son, so if Gilly is Craster's daughter and she's adopted Mance's son as her child, voile: Craster's grandson!

[Black Crow]

(Gilly) "We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he's old enough, not now. We could."

(Sam) "Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though."

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had non of Sam's craven blood. "yes. Call him that."

There are three possibilities. One is that Mance Rayder is Craster's son, which seems unlikely given the way they refer to each other; another is that his adoptive mother (Gilly) is Craster's daughter/granddaughter, although I think this is getting complicated and stretching things a bit, especially as Gilly is only looking after him temporary like, and the last is that Dalla was one of Craster's daughters - which given the incestuous nature of life in Craster's Keep, everyone including Gilly and therefore by extension Sam, will have known about.

I don't really think it matters beyond the fact that I think the first option - that Mance is Craster's son - is a non-starter.

I do, however, still think that Bloodraven could well be Craster's father. Hence the connection to the Cold Lot.

[Ser Leftwich]

Wha??? That last one is a given. Sam knows Gilly is Craster's daughter, and he knows the babe is Mance's son, so if Gilly is Craster's daughter and she's adopted Mance's son as her child, voile: Craster's grandson!

I meant, how Sam could have knowledge so that his statement was biologically true. As per earlier discussions of Craster's, Mance's, Bryn Blackwood's, and Stark bloodlines. If Aemon Steelsong is biologically related to Mance and Craster, we get the possibility that Mance and Craster are related; that gives a new/different direction to discussions.

* Edited so that I actually wrote what I meant. By Monster I meant Aemon Steelsong.

[Melifeather]

Now I think you're mixed up. Monster is Gilly and Craster's son. Aemon Steelsong is Dallas and Mance.

[Ser Leftwich]

Now I think you're mixed up. Monster is Gilly and Craster's son. Aemon Steelsong is Dallas and Mance.

I meant Aemon Steelsong, not Monster.

* Edit to add: If Aemon Steelsong does have, biologically, Mance as father and Craster as a grandfather, then Aemon Steelsong and Monster are related, correct?

[Black Crow]

No Ser Leftwich aint mixed up. Aemon is indeed Mance and Dalla's son, while Monster is Craster and Gilly's. That bit's straightforward. What's complicating things is the uncertainty as to what Sam means when he refers to Aemon as Craster's grandson.

[Uncat]

But how/why would Sam know about Dalla?

Well, he spend a lot of time with here. So she might have told him a thing to two. They only engage in the non-talking-stuff in the last weeks of the journey, don't they ;)

[Ser Leftwich]

Well, he spend a lot of time with here. So she might have told him a thing to two. They only engage in the non-talking-stuff in the last weeks of the journey, don't they ;)

As in:

Sam: "Hey Gilly, tell me more about what went on at Craster's House of Incest and theme park?"

Gilly: "Oh, interesting event, some famous wilding Mance something or other stole away with my sister/aunt/cousins Dalla and Val a few months ago."

[Uncat]

Just an afterthought: Gilli, Dalla, Dalla, Gilli...