The concept of "Starkness"

[David Selig]

This is funny, I was just thinking today that I should start a thread on this exact topic. IMO it's a concept so broad and loosely defined it is pretty much devoid of meaning. Everyone we've seen from this family is pretty different in personality and the reputation of the old time Starks is a quite different from that of the current ones too.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Ooh boy, where do I begin to unpick this. My point in highlighting this was to show you that often times the way we perceive others is based on our own insecurities and prejudices informed by society. And women especially have been taught to oppose each other based on superficial differences. Instead of promoting sisterhood, we see instances of internalised misogyny, where women are made to view other women as somehow lacking or inferior because they exhibit traditional feminine qualities.

I actually agree with your observation, I just don't think it applies to Arya and Sansa. I believe Arya had very legitimate reasons to resent Sansa. Gender issues exist, yes, but not everything is one.

It's very easy to pin the label of conceited on "popular" girls without actually having a clue what these girls are like, and I think that's evident when it comes to some of the views readers hold about Sansa.

It is very easy indeed. Because usually they are. Same as it is very easy to pin the label of corrupt on politicians and the label of ruthless on CEOs. Because the tenents of the society we live in makes people with certain characteristics to accend to certain positions. The % of psychopaths among CEOs is about 5 times higher than among average people. And the % of conceited asses among "popular" girls is probably equally higher for analogous reasons.

So that you don't see it as a gender issue - you seem to have that bias - I feel obligated to say the same is true about jocks and frat boys too, ok?

Was Arya rebelling against injustices when she said that she didn't want to have tea with the queen? Or were you talking about her reaction to the incident that happened with Mycah, something which neither sister was happy about?

Yes, in a way she was. The queen is an evil ass. And even though at this point we still don't know to what extent, yes, Arya knows something is wrong with her and reacts accordingly.

And at other points Arya generally would fight and rebel against injustice - the correct postition - while Sansa would usually not. Sansa might even be unhappy about it when she wasn't naive enough to not even notice that, but would do her bidding dutyfully. Arya would rebel. And as the Zack De La Rocha wisely wrote: "Anger is a gift."

Your image of Arya as some caped crusader against injustices in AGOT is really just a romantic concoction with no textual basis. Arya in the first book is a confused little girl, who feels like an outsider in her family, resents her sister's success at feminine arts and longs for an outlet to express what she's good at. When that happens through Syrio's training, we see most of the rivalry and tension between her and Sansa evaporate.

I don't see her as a romantic caped crusader. I see her as a smart girl with a lot of empathy and few class-bias. More then can be said for early Sansa. Neither I see Aryas animosity towards Sansa go away. I see a general relief of Arya from opressive "feminine" duties by virtue of being allowed to do at least one thing she actually likes.

So I guess Sandor Clegane met these superficial standards? Along with Lollys and Dontos?

In a way, yes. First, this is not the same Sansa: she's already starting to learn her harshy lesson. Second, Sansa likes the Hound (and even Dontos) because she sees them as her saviors, her knights, which unfortunately shows that she still nourishes her childhood fantasies, even if she is already learning. The hound is not hideous, you know? At least not in a way that wouldn't appeal to many females I know. He's tall and strong, and his deformity is considered stylish and sexy for at least one female ASOIAF fan I know of. He is also the first guy she actually likes in a less superficial way, I'll give you that.

Dontos might be ugly and disgraced, but he is "her Florian" and is very knightly with her, which plays right onto her childhood fantasies about knights and fairy tales. In a way, she does bring the best of him, even if for all the wrong reasons (he's not exactly a noble soul).

But more to the point, she should've learnt (and she does/bet she will) that she needs to save herself and knights are overrated. (As the Hound puts it "killers, all of them".)

Sansa not mixing with the common people doesn't mean that she had no sympathy for them.

No, but it does mean that she believes herself to be better than them, like most nobles. A thought Arya and other Stark didn't shared, at least not to her level.

Like I said above, if Arya had a better teacher at Winterfell, someone who was a lot more patient and considerate, she would not have felt like such an outsider and neither would she have been so rebellious. I firmly believe that a lot of Arya's acting out was because she was made to feel inadequate to Sansa.

I agree. But this was not only her teacher's fault, but also Cat's, Ned's and Sansa's. Who is "more to blame" would probably be especulation. But being rebellious of an injust society is, as I implied before, a good thing.

Why would she be upset about this particular incident though if she didn't consider Joffrey to be better looking than Tommen?

Probably because she didn't liked the very shallow criteria for arranging seats. Of course she considered Joffrey better looking - every society has it's beauty padron - that was not my point. My point is that she was much less inclined to judge him as "good" because of this than Sansa.

[Porcelain Steel]

I think that level of "Starkness" depends on the willingness of a Stark child to adopt the traits that are considered Stark. Those ideas that are passed from generation to generation and stem from the surroundings the ancestors lived in - you can't deny the place that brought you up,it shapes you. They are harsh and hard,just and sustained. That's character,an active deliberation of family's moral & values,along with one's own traits,desires,dreams and decisions. Wolf's blood is temperament,not character.

That said,all Stark children and Jon are carrying the Stark values in manner that corresponds to their pesonalities. Arya and Sansa are actually summoning those qualities in dark moments as guiding lights. Bran uses them to boost his courage,to Rob they are a responsability & warning,both well of determination but also burden. Jon... we know how sweet & hard are those to him. Moments of pride and pain. Rickon is wild :)

Being Stark,as inopportune as it may be at this stage,is means of survival,knowing who you are.

I think this is a beautiful summation, and may be a good answer to the original question of why we care so much about the whole concept of Starkness in the first place-The idea of being a Stark is something all of the Stark kids (including Jon here) are holding onto in one way or another, so it is something that still binds them together even in their separation-it means something to all of them, so it means something to us as readers.

[Samsaptakas]

Starkness is the measure of shit you are going to get. The more you fucked up, more Stark you are.

[KingOfTheRats]

This is funny, I was just thinking today that I should start a thread on this exact topic. IMO it's a concept so broad and loosely defined it is pretty much devoid of meaning. Everyone we've seen from this family is pretty different in personality and the reputation of the old time Starks is a quite different from that of the current ones too.

After reading this entire thread, I agree with David. But...

Just for fun:

A STARK-NESS QUIZ:

1. Your gods are:

a - Gods? There are none. [0 pts.]

b - The Great Shepherd or Great Stallion or R'Hillor [1 pt.]

c - The Seven or the Drowned God [2 pts.]

d - The Many-Faced-God [3 pts.]

e - The Old Gods [4 pts.]

2. Someone needs execution. The proper method for achieving this is:

a - Nobody deserves execution, be a humanitarian ! [0 pt.]

b - Have your men kill them secretly when you're not around [1 pt.]

c - Order your men to hang them, behead them or burn them alive [2 pts.]

d - Draw your blade and kill them yourself [3 pts.]

e - Open their throat yourself, spilling their blood next to a heart tree [4 pts.]

3. Your opinion on wolves:

a - Wolves are dirty vermin, get rid of them all [0 pt.]

b - Wolves pelts are useful to keep you warm [1 pt.]

c - Wolves are okay, so long as they do not threaten you [2 pts.]

d - Wolves are weapons: the more dire, the better [3 pts.]

e - Wolves and direwolves are sacred creatures, and also happen to be your close friends [4 pts.]

4. Why does House Stark say "Winter Is Coming" ?

a - All the good mottos were taken by the time they learned to read, LOL. [0 pts.]

b - They like to state the obvious, so they can always be right ... eventually. [2 pts.]

c - To always remind themselves of the inevitably of death [4 pts.]

5 - The Night's Watch is ...

a - An ancient and honourable order that guards the realms of men from the horrors beyond the wall [4 pts.]

b - A strange group of misfits who spend their lives worrying about grumkins and snarks [2 pts.]

c - A convenient dumping-ground for all the scum of Westeros [0 pts.]

6. What is good name for a fine sword ?

a - Ice, Needle, Longclaw [4 pts.]

b - Dark Sister, Dawn, Nightfall [3 pts.]

c - Who cares what it's called as long as it's Valyrian ? [2 pts.]

d - Lion's Tooth, Joso's Cock [1 pt.]

e - Supreme Maiden-Raping Traitor-Killer Deluxe [0 pts.]

7. How do you want to die ?

a - I will never die, I am the blood of the dragon / lion / harpy / etc. ! [0 pts.]

b - At the age of 80, in bed, with a girl's mouth around my cock [1 pt.]

c - Death by fire is the purest death [2 pts.]

d - One day I'll just tell the family I'm going hunting, and walk out into the snow [3 pts.]

e - In battle! Let me bathe in Bolton / Frey / Lannister blood before I die ! [4 pts.]

8. If you know what Hodor actually means, add 2 bonus points.

If you scored less than 10 points, you're no Stark, and better run south come winter.

If you scord 17 points or more, maybe you're a Snow

If you scored 20 or more points, you are worthy of the name Stark

If you scored over 25, you're probably a full-blooded warg going back at least 5 generations.

this is cool too

[brashcandy]

In a way, yes. First, this is not the same Sansa: she's already starting to learn her harshy lesson. Second, Sansa likes the Hound (and even Dontos) because she sees them as her saviors, her knights, which unfortunately shows that she still nourishes her childhood fantasies, even if she is already learning. The hound is not hideous, you know? At least not in a way that wouldn't appeal to many females I know. He's tall and strong, and his deformity is considered stylish and sexy for at least one female ASOIAF fan I know of. He is also the first guy she actually likes in a less superficial way, I'll give you that.

Dontos might be ugly and disgraced, but he is "her Florian" and is very knightly with her, which plays right onto her childhood fantasies about knights and fairy tales. In a way, she does bring the best of him, even if for all the wrong reasons (he's not exactly a noble soul).

Huh? For a very long time Sansa can barely stand to look Sandor full in the face. And her show of empathy to Sandor, and rescuing Dontos from Joffrey's wrath occurs before they took on roles as her protectors. Indeed, before she saved Dontos all she knew of him was that he was a frequently drunk knight who was persuaded not to speak to her in the chapter where she goes to beg mercy for her father.

[Kittykatknits]

This is funny, I was just thinking today that I should start a thread on this exact topic. IMO it's a concept so broad and loosely defined it is pretty much devoid of meaning. Everyone we've seen from this family is pretty different in personality and the reputation of the old time Starks is a quite different from that of the current ones too.

Actually, I had been thinking about this exact same topic today to and had started to writeup a rather sarcastic response to this topic and then decided not too.

I'm convinced the word "Starkness" is the most inane, stupid, ridiculous, overused, ill-defined, and pointless term in the fandom.

Huh? For a very long time Sansa can barely stand to look Sandor full in the face. And her show of empathy to Sandor, and rescuing Dontos from Joffrey's wrath occurs before they took on roles as her protectors. Indeed, before she saved Dontos all she knew of him was that he was a frequently drunk knight who was persuaded not to speak to her in the chapter where she goes to beg mercy for her father.

I already decided to ignore him...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here's my take on what Starkness comes down to: family. It's not about having brown hair and gray eyes, or being wild or cautious or honorable or cruel or cold or hard.

It's about Jon agonizing over whether to join his brother's army to avenge his father, and heading to Winterfell when he thinks his sister is in danger.

It's about Robb knowing — knowing — that Jon would never hurt his children to press a claim to Winterfell.

It's about Ned telling Arya that she and Sansa need to make peace with each other, because eventually they might be all the other has.

It's about Sansa building Winterfell out of snow and thinking about pranks her siblings used to play on each other.

It's about Ned risking a death sentence to protect his sister's child.

Even in older times, times that were supposedly "cruel," you see evidence of extraordinary gestures or emotiveness related to the Starks and their family. One Stark sails off the edge of the world; his son burns the fleet. One lord Stark dies in a wildling attack, his younger brother cradles his corpse. A Lord Stark (supposedly) kills his wildling father, and his mother commits suicide in despair. A Stark mother invests a sense of vengeance in her unborn child.

Alone among the major Westerosi families (although you can make an argument for the Tyrells, I'd say), the Starks as a family have no scheming, no backhandedness, no politicking, no backstabbing, no serious issues of dysfunctionality. They are in every sense a pack, and I think that has far more to do with Starkness than broad personality traits or physical traits. And I think it's meaningful that it's when the Starks separated that they began to fall; but when they come back together, that's when they'll be great again as a house.

[The Frosted King]

Starkness in my mind is adherence to the pack.

Sansa had the least of this before her fathers death, Arya the most.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Huh? For a very long time Sansa can barely stand to look Sandor full in the face. And her show of empathy to Sandor, and rescuing Dontos from Joffrey's wrath occurs before they took on roles as her protectors. Indeed, before she saved Dontos all she knew of him was that he was a frequently drunk knight who was persuaded not to speak to her in the chapter where she goes to beg mercy for her father.

Yes. But that's mostly because she is afraid of the man, not because he is particularly ugly. And yet when she starts crushing on Sandor, that's based on the knightly fantasies (which is admitedly deeper than the vain "looks only" approach she took for Joffrey and yet I don't think she could've felt the same if he was Tyrion-like).

As for Dontos, I never said she didn't helped him out of empathy. I only said she sees him as her Florian and still mantain the silly knightly notions.

[Free Northman]

Fierceness, resilience and a sense ofresponsibility and gravitas that exceeds your age. Those are some of the Stark traits.

Bran is 7, but because he is a Stark he must act as an adult according to Robb.

Frivolousness is discouraged, as are other foolish habits of the southron jackanapes, such as Renly's jolly tourneys on his march to Kings Landing.

Basically, be the opposite of a Knight of Summer, or a sweet summer child.

[Free Northman]

To summarize, fun is for fools. Take life seriously.

[FacelessDude]

I'd have to say that Starkness is defined as being too damn honest. Having the last name Stark is almost a death sentence in its self especially since the war started after Ned's head rolled of off his shoulders.

[Free Northman]

From a personal integrity perspective - be the opposite of the Lannisters.

From a lifestyle perspective - be the opposite of Renly.

That's some more Starkness.

[Summer is Ending]

Fierceness, resilience and a sense ofresponsibility and gravitas that exceeds your age. Those are some of the Stark traits.

Bran is 7, but because he is a Stark he must act as an adult according to Robb.

Frivolousness is discouraged, as are other foolish habits of the southron jackanapes, such as Renly's jolly tourneys on his march to Kings Landing.

Basically, be the opposite of a Knight of Summer, or a sweet summer child.

Ned frowned. “He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.”

[kephv]

If you scored over 25, you're probably a full-blooded warg going back at least 5 generations.

:lol:

This is awesome. Now if only there was something like this for the Targs and everyone in Westeros was required to take it.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

:lol:

This is awesome. Now if only there was something like this for the Targs and everyone in Westeros was required to take it.

This was funny!

[Hear Us Roar]

IMO Starkness is mad up of two camps

Camp 1

-Wild, uncontrollable, and animalistic---Arya, Brandon, and Lyanna

Camp 2

- Stoic, Dark, regretful, Cold- Ned, Jon, Robb

[Florina Laufeyson]

Here's my take on what Starkness comes down to: family. It's not about having brown hair and gray eyes, or being wild or cautious or honorable or cruel or cold or hard.

It's about Jon agonizing over whether to join his brother's army to avenge his father, and heading to Winterfell when he thinks his sister is in danger.

It's about Robb knowing — knowing — that Jon would never hurt his children to press a claim to Winterfell.

It's about Ned telling Arya that she and Sansa need to make peace with each other, because eventually they might be all the other has.

It's about Sansa building Winterfell out of snow and thinking about pranks her siblings used to play on each other.

It's about Ned risking a death sentence to protect his sister's child.

Even in older times, times that were supposedly "cruel," you see evidence of extraordinary gestures or emotiveness related to the Starks and their family. One Stark sails off the edge of the world; his son burns the fleet. One lord Stark dies in a wildling attack, his younger brother cradles his corpse. A Lord Stark (supposedly) kills his wildling father, and his mother commits suicide in despair. A Stark mother invests a sense of vengeance in her unborn child.

Alone among the major Westerosi families (although you can make an argument for the Tyrells, I'd say), the Starks as a family have no scheming, no backhandedness, no politicking, no backstabbing, no serious issues of dysfunctionality. They are in every sense a pack, and I think that has far more to do with Starkness than broad personality traits or physical traits. And I think it's meaningful that it's when the Starks separated that they began to fall; but when they come back together, that's when they'll be great again as a house.

This. A thousand times, this. This is what being a Stark means.

[King of Swords]

I actually agree with your observation, I just don't think it applies to Arya and Sansa. I believe Arya had very legitimate reasons to resent Sansa. Gender issues exist, yes, but not everything is one.

I'm sure that Arya's reasons seem legitimate to her, but they aren't legitimate to anyone but her, since they're highly personal.

It is very easy indeed. Because usually they are. Same as it is very easy to pin the label of corrupt on politicians and the label of ruthless on CEOs. Because the tenents of the society we live in makes people with certain characteristics to accend to certain positions. The % of psychopaths among CEOs is about 5 times higher than among average people. And the % of conceited asses among "popular" girls is probably equally higher for analogous reasons.

So that you don't see it as a gender issue - you seem to have that bias - I feel obligated to say the same is true about jocks and frat boys too, ok?

Stereotyping is still stereotyping, no matter how accurate it may be. Yes, some or even most politicians may be corrupt and some or even most CEO's may be ruthless, but that doesn't mean they all are, and it's unfair to judge them like that.

Yes, in a way she was. The queen is an evil ass. And even though at this point we still don't know to what extent, yes, Arya knows something is wrong with her and reacts accordingly.

And at other points Arya generally would fight and rebel against injustice - the correct postition - while Sansa would usually not. Sansa might even be unhappy about it when she wasn't naive enough to not even notice that, but would do her bidding dutyfully. Arya would rebel. And as the Zack De La Rocha wisely wrote: "Anger is a gift."

She knew nothing about the queen at that point. She didn't go because she didn't want to, not because she was rebelling against injustice. And just what injustice does Arya rebel against and Sansa doesn't, apart from the Mycah incident?

I don't see her as a romantic caped crusader. I see her as a smart girl with a lot of empathy and few class-bias. More then can be said for early Sansa. Neither I see Aryas animosity towards Sansa go away. I see a general relief of Arya from opressive "feminine" duties by virtue of being allowed to do at least one thing she actually likes.

Sansa has a lot of empathy as well, you know. And Arya's animosity of Sansa does decrease after she starts lessons with Syrio, thought that maybe because of her conversation with her father.

In a way, yes. First, this is not the same Sansa: she's already starting to learn her harshy lesson. Second, Sansa likes the Hound (and even Dontos) because she sees them as her saviors, her knights, which unfortunately shows that she still nourishes her childhood fantasies, even if she is already learning. The hound is not hideous, you know? At least not in a way that wouldn't appeal to many females I know. He's tall and strong, and his deformity is considered stylish and sexy for at least one female ASOIAF fan I know of. He is also the first guy she actually likes in a less superficial way, I'll give you that.

Dontos might be ugly and disgraced, but he is "her Florian" and is very knightly with her, which plays right onto her childhood fantasies about knights and fairy tales. In a way, she does bring the best of him, even if for all the wrong reasons (he's not exactly a noble soul).

But more to the point, she should've learnt (and she does/bet she will) that she needs to save herself and knights are overrated. (As the Hound puts it "killers, all of them".)

brashcandy already pointed this out but Sansa showed compassion toward both these characters before she really knew them or liked them

No, but it does mean that she believes herself to be better than them, like most nobles. A thought Arya and other Stark didn't shared, at least not to her level.

Where on Earth do you get this from? For example I don't hang around the people across the road from me, not because I think I'm better than them but because I don't really have anything to do with them. It's the same for Sansa.

I agree. But this was not only her teacher's fault, but also Cat's, Ned's and Sansa's. Who is "more to blame" would probably be especulation. But being rebellious of an injust society is, as I implied before, a good thing.

You can maybe make a point about Cat, but not Ned and Arya. Ned enables her 'rebellion ' most of the time anyway.

Probably because she didn't liked the very shallow criteria for arranging seats. Of course she considered Joffrey better looking - every society has it's beauty padron - that was not my point. My point is that she was much less inclined to judge him as "good" because of this than Sansa.

What shallow criteria? Arya thinks there is some conspiracy against her with the seating when in reality, they simply paired the oldest Stark girl, Sansa with the oldest Baratheon boy, Joffrey and the youngest Stark girl, Arya with the youngest Baratheon boy, Tommen. That's all