Becoming No One: Rereading Arya II

[Lummel]

Dare I say it Lummel, but I suspect your understanding of Robin Hood is better and more comprehensive than the average person on the street such as myself...

I could never consent to you being described as an average person on the street :)

Maybe you are right to describe it as an inversion, particularly when you put it like that, moving from story book robin hoods to a war ravaged group of vengeful people. I suppose in the figure of Lem Lemoncloak both are there from the start.

ETA

er, this is our old friend the theme of disillusionment, from idealism to realism, or more literally the ideals are washed and abraised off them by their experiences

ETA 2

Little thought. We've seen characters going through a process of disillusionment (Jaime, Sansa, Bran, arguably Tyrion) but isn't GRRM putting us as readers through a process of disillusionment as we read and reread? Such illusions that we may have about the ideals and good nature of characters and groups are slowly stripped away from us as we read through or reread the series.

[1234567]

I could never consent to you being described as an average person on the street :)

Lummel, if we were to compare, I'm fairly certain that I'd be the Ralph Wigum to your Lisa Simpson :)

Seriously, the posts by you, Brash, Lyanna, Apple Martini, Milady, Tze, butter bumps, Kittykatknits, Mlladen etc etc. are all genuinely brilliant.

Maybe you are right to describe it as an inversion, particularly when you put it like that, moving from story book robin hoods to a war ravaged group of vengeful people. I suppose in the figure of Lem Lemoncloak both are there from the start.

Maybe, but as you said, there are a lot of layers and facets to the story behind Robin Hood....and I have been known to maybe read too much into things....:leaving:

[1234567]

ETA 2

Little thought. We've seen characters going through a process of disillusionment (Jaime, Sansa, Bran, arguably Tyrion) but isn't GRRM putting us as readers through a process of disillusionment as we read and reread? Such illusions that we may have about the ideals and good nature of characters and groups are slowly stripped away from us as we read through or reread the series.

Bloody excellent observation and bloody true. How much of our first character impressions are formed by the assumption that x character fits x archetype and because of that we concentrate on the parts that fit our conception while mentally dismissing actions that oppose that view.

[Lummel]

Lummel, if we were to compare, I'm fairly certain that I'd be the Ralph Wigum to your Lisa Simpson :)...

Is this your way of inviting me to go with you to a Krusty the Clown show with the intention of declaring your plan to marry me? And I don't even remember sending you a Valentine... ;)

[1234567]

Is this your way of inviting me to go with you to a Krusty the Clown show with the intention of declaring your plan to marry me? And I don't even remember sending you a Valentine... ;)

He he he, I choo choo choose you. :lol:

[Punchslap]

We've seen characters going through a process of disillusionment (Jaime, Sansa, Bran, arguably Tyrion) but isn't GRRM putting us as readers through a process of disillusionment as we read and reread? Such illusions that we may have about the ideals and good nature of characters and groups are slowly stripped away from us as we read through or reread the series.

I think that's the intent (disillusionment), although the effect is going to vary from reader to reader. I'm a little wary of the "we" you use for shared ideals and values--although perhaps I'm reading too much into the thought. I haven't been surprised by character evolutions (disillusionments) in the story, but that doesn't detract from those developments being (mostly) interesting.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Really nice catch on the dead man's food. I completely missed that! Also great Jaime/Arya journey comparisons.

I think the characters are pretty comparable as well.

Arya/Brienne- Arya doesn't want to be a lady, neither did Brienne, both trained at swordplay instead. Brienne had three betrothals offers. Arya has had a few as well: LF suggest Arya and Tommen be betrothed. Arya was betrothed to a frey and there's one more that "Arya" gets away from. Both are the leader of the group despite being a girl.

Gendry/Jaime- Gendry's father married Jaime's sister. That makes them relates by marriage. Gendry rises from being a bastard to becoming a knight, Jaime goes from being heir to castley rock who could've been a very great and power lord after his father dies to only being a KG knight.

Hot Pie/ Cleos Frey- The "red shirt" character. Everything that they say is a bad idea, or "stupid"

Journey is has even more similarities that I didn't notice last night.

Arya's three began there journey together at KL during the day, they're attacked and thrown off their path by a bannermen of the Lannisters. Escape but are later captured and taken to Harrenhall.

Brienne's three began there journey together at Riverrun at night. They're attacked by bannermen of the Starks and escape, but are later captured by bloody mummers and taken to Harrenhall.

Brienne's group avoid being robbed by BwB and Arya fails.

Arya escapes Harrenhall they're pursued by Bloody Mummers. Brienne and company are captured by Bloody Mummers. Arya fears that they'll lose their hands or feet if they're captured. Jaime decides to go back for Brienne, Gendry decides to leave with Arya.

( can't go further without looking ahead at our reread but I'll point it out as we go along)

Had none of this happened, I think Arya would always have been a spirited girl who was quick to anger but that reaction would have been tempered to a degree. Her experiences have instead exacerbated this defence mechanism and now violence is associated with safety: it's kill or be killed in most situations as far as she's concerned.

None of these things? Jon Arryn, Jory, her father, Syrio, Yoren, Lummy have all affected her and changed the "path" she was on physically, emotionally, spiritually and/or mentally.

Fight or flight is the basic human response to acute stress, Arya has successfully handled a couple situations stable boy, guard at Harrenhall, etc. by fight. She's been in a few others where it hasn't worked, against the Mountain's men, against the BwB at the inn just now. She's successfuly used flight as well: escaping discovery of the princess when she was chasing cats, escaping the guards with Syrio's help, escaping Lorch near God's Eye.

The constant fear of capture can effect someone mentally if they don't get periods to recover. Luckily she also has her dreams, where instead of being hunted she gets to hunt people.

Battle cry was sort of displayed when she yelled "winterfell" repeatedly at the God's Eye. Arya also seems to be devolping a battle trance, during combat situations. When neccessary she's commanded over a few soldiers at God's Eye, completely stayed out of the way at Harrenhall and we'll probably see her continue to find a role when fights occur. Fighter, leader, squire etc.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hah now the board is up so almost all of my notes are useless since you guys have already covered it. :P

EDIT: Also a warm welcome to all the newer and fresher participants!

I did not the two references to ingesting death, picking vegetables in a dead man's garden and also the soup with dead flies. Which btw Anguy says Lem would eat as well. I will get back to Lem later because I have had some Thoughts on him (and a bit of a crackpot which may or may not be appropriate for such a serious thread as this :P ).

Conon's thoughts on Arya acting like a smaller version of the Hound here and attempting to use the same tactics was something that struck me too. Hence why their later interactions are so interesting in that Arya in some ways is the Hound writ small. She's learning the same lessons he has learnt and some of them from the same person, more or less: Gregor. She's learnt that in order to not be without agency and without power, you need to strike back and strike hard. It's also telling that both of them suffer from PTSD/child soldier sort of experience. But Arya is indeed not as large or scary as the Hound, so she cannot use physical intimidation to her advantage like he can.

Identity:

- Arya misses Needle, which we've seen and will see more of as an item she places a lot of value in and which gets to represent her identity as Arya Stark to a rather large degree. The sword she has now is too large and it doesn't fit her.

- She points out that she's a girl when taken for a boy. This is not something surprising to us who've spent some time pouring over Arya's chapters, but it seems a common enough opinion that since she's more of a tomboy and wants to do what boys get to do, she should also wish to be a boy, but that is not the case. In fact, Arya often emphasises that she is in fact female.

- Another name again. Squab. And another identity picked up.

She'd had so many names. Had she only dreamed Arya Stark? "I'm a girl," she sniffed. "I was Lord Bolton's cupbearer but he was going to leave me for the goat, so I ran off with Gendry and Hot Pie. You have to know me! You used to lead my pony, when I was little."

- I found this part one of the most heart wrenching in this chapter. Arya is losing track of who she is in her battle for survival. The memory of a happier life seems to almost have become a dream. Note that she doesn't say her name here, she's referring to what happened and it seems as if she's hoping that Harwin will say her name for her, as if she's not really sure of it anymore.

The merry men of the BWB:

I agree that the BWB come across as a Robin Hood and the merry men variety (probably because I am nowhere near as familiar with Robin Hood as Lummel, which probably means I need to wear that hair shirt again. :crying: )

Interestingly, they claim to not be robbers, however, when Arya tries a similar shtick, they won't have it.

"We never stole," said Arya.

"Are you Old Pate's daughter then? A sister? A wife? Tell me no lies Squab."

But apparently later, they are not robbing Arya when they "forage" the horses. :P

I'll be back with Lem in a later post, or maybe I should wait a bit with my Lem Lemoncloak theory since we're a bit further along in the reread. I bet you are all waiting with bated breath etc etc. :P

The kneeling man:

The painted sign above the door showed a picture of some old king on his knees.

Indeed it does, and it's Torrhen Stark, the last King in the North before Robb Stark was declared such, kneeling to Aegon I to avoid being fried by a dragon. So we have Gendry speaking scornfully about his royal father, and here we have Arya thinking that it's some old king on his knees, while it's actually one of her own ancestors.

Not sure if it's at all relevant, but I thought it was a nice touch of irony!

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Indeed it does, and it's Torrhen Stark, the last King in the North before Robb Stark was declared such, kneeling to Aegon I to avoid being fried by a dragon. So we have Gendry speaking scornfully about his royal father, and here we have Arya thinking that it's some old king on his knees, while it's actually one of her own ancestors.

Not sure if it's at all relevant, but I thought it was a nice touch of irony!

Now all we need is to learn that Hot Pie is somehow a long lost royal blood member as well. :eek:

Both don't realize that they're talking about their royal family? 300 years ago, Arya's ancestor's bent the knee and Gendry's became lords of the stormlands because of the field of fire. Both had a relative connection to the dragon(Gendry's great grandmother and Arya's cousin) Their fathers defeated the dragons 15 years ago in Robert's Rebellion?

I didn't realize that it was her ancestor because there were other kings that bent the knee to Aegon. Nice catch.

[Blisscraft]

Very good insights, everyone! :cheers:

About Kneeling - this chapter ends at the inn, The Inn of the Kneeling Man. As noted, Jaime and Brienne had a brief visit to this inn in an earlier chapter. In the Jaime chapter, he sees the shingle and laughs remarking, "We could not have found a better inn." Cleos explains to Brienne the significance of this place, the inn. Cleos says, "This is the Inn of the Kneeling Man. It stands upon the very spot where the last King in the North knelt before aegon the Conqueror to offer his submission. . . "

Jaime further explains, "Torrhen had brought his power south after the fall of the two kings on the Field of Fire. . . but when he saw the size of Aegon's dragon and host, he chose the path of wisdom and bent his frozen knees."

This series is loaded to references to "bending the knee." Arya's present chapter isn't any different. This inn, the place where her ancestor knelt, is also a place where she, too, must "kneel" given her present circumstances. Kneeling is a physical act wherein one projects a submission of one's will to another. The body itself is the bearer of meaning. It can be seen as a means of worship, of capitulation, of surrender, of proposal (as in the marriage proposal), of appeal, of humility (pilgrims will crawl upon their knees to a shrine). It is a sign of respect as in seiza, the kneeling posture of the Samurai. In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus kneels to pray in the garden of Gethsemene.

Arya "kneels" or submits to something greater than her powerful but damaging experience in this chapter when she confronts Harwin with her true identity. All of the fighting and posturing and willfulness and lies collapse, as one's knees collapse, when confronted with the greater picture. Arya is dumped "unceremoniously" to the floor before Harwin, who "goes to one knee" before her. Arya, like her ancestor Torrhen, choses the path of wisdom and by so doing reveals not only her personal truth, but also the truth of the identity of the BwB-- her fathers men.

ETA: ninja'd by Lyanna.

[Lummel]

No, no, that wasn't the point I wanted to make with regard to Robin Hood, the BWB is definitely a Robin Hood tribute band and it plays many of the favourite tropes, see Tom o' Sevens and Lem Lemoncloak for instance, er, its more that I don't think you can invert Robin Hood because the corpus of Robin Hood stories, variants and versions is so big that you can probably find any inversion you can think of in the existing stories.

However GRRM uses it as part of his disillusionment theme in two ways, firstly by contrast with the Kingswood Brotherhood - whose deeds are already celebrated in stories and songs in ASOIAF yet we see the reality of the kingswood brotherhood in Jaime's reflections, secondly we see, particularly through the eyes of Thoros of Myr a sense of ideals giving way to fatalism. Their story is a bit like Mother Courage - things start off bad and then get worse, she believes she can't be harmed and can profit from the war but ends up proving herself wrong.

I suppose the other thing to add to Torhen Stark is that Arya is submitting in this chapter too as her forbear did , aye, aye and Blisscraft gets in with the parallel before me :laugh:

[Lyanna Stark]

ETA: ninja'd by Lyanna.

Not at all, your insights are far better than mine! :)

However GRRM uses it as part of his disillusionment theme in two ways, firstly by contrast with the Kingswood Brotherhood - whose deeds are already celebrated in stories and songs in ASOIAF yet we see the reality of the kingswood brotherhood in Jaime's reflections, secondly we see, particularly through the eyes of Thoros of Myr a sense of ideals giving way to fatalism.

True, but then you also have Ulmer as a sort of counterweight. I mean sure, he's no hero exactly, but he still serves the Nights Watch and is a valuable member of it.

Interestingly, he stole a kiss not at swordpoint exactly, but allegedly by put an arrow through the White Bull's hand to steal a kiss from Elia Martell, which is rather similar! And here we have a song about stealing a kiss at swordpoint, which both Ulmer (sort of) and imaginary!Sandor Clegane have done. Both outlaws of sorts as well, albeit with another purpose ahead of them.

[Blisscraft]

No worries, Lyanna and Lummel! Great minds think alike! :grouphug:

[Where is Rickon]

I was lurking on Sansa’s PrP thread, but was avoiding this one, because of the title. Arya is one of my favorite characters and I thought you are badmouthing my girl. Now I am thinking that it’s actually a fitting title for her. It’s because she is as “no one” in the game of thrones as any highborn lady can be, her POV chapters are my favorite. Nobody’s pawn, but not a player either (not yet at least). I do enjoy reading about schemes and intrigues, but grateful for the break that her POV chapters provide.

I have a lot of catching up to do, but hoping to add my 2 cents when I am up to speed.

[Lummel]

...True, but then you also have Ulmer as a sort of counterweight. I mean sure, he's no hero exactly, but he still serves the Nights Watch and is a valuable member of it.

Interestingly, he stole a kiss not at swordpoint exactly, but allegedly by put an arrow through the White Bull's hand to steal a kiss from Elia Martell, which is rather similar! And here we have a song about stealing a kiss at swordpoint, which both Ulmer (sort of) and imaginary!Sandor Clegane have done. Both outlaws of sorts as well, albeit with another purpose ahead of them.

Yes but looks what happened to him - he's on the Wall and his companions are dead! OK he gets to tell his old stories but the bandit life is only going to end in one of two ways death or the Wall. That's what I mean. In ASOS the glory and adventure are to the forefront, by AFFC the inevitable end seems to loom.

[Elba the Intoner]

I loved Arya's shocked reaction to Hot Pie's singing here. For me that was another funny moment peppered throughout chapters that tend to be very heavy and serious. Also, Arya has a change of heart of sorts about singing. She thinks it's stupid and says so to Tom but when they are walking with them to the Inn she thinks how the singing made the travel go by much quicker. This is another purpose of the song. It can be a great way to help one pass the time.

[Ragnorak]

Sometime I thank God for unanswered prayers

You old gods, she prayed as the singer’s voice grew louder, you tree gods, hide me, and make him go past. Then a horse whickered, and the song broke off suddenly.

She could not see them from where she knelt, on account of the willow. But she could hear.

There is a lot going in here. Arya is hiding behind a tree but also kneeling behind this willow with all the symbolic importance Blisscraft pointed out. The trees are how the Old Gods see but Arya can't see these men specifically because of the tree blocks her sight. She is also hiding from a singer which has CotF associations. Immediately after she prays to the tree gods who are blocking her sight a horse whickers. Animals and warging are also the dominion of these tree gods and horses, as has been noted earlier, are a symbol of Arya's freedom. Horses are also specifically associated with Arya's face which relates to her true identity and this horse revealing her location is what detours her from Riverrun to the Faceless Men. Arguably Arya is free in Braavos instead of dead or captive at the Twins or Riverrun because this horse whickers. It is also horses, learning to ride a pony specifically, that makes Harwin recognize her.

Aside from repeated theme of eating or sustaining herself on death there's the parallel willow scene from CoK.

The one-armed woman died at evenfall. Gendry and Cutjack dug her grave on a hillside beneath a weeping willow. When the wind blew, Arya thought she could hear the long trailing branches whispering, “Please. Please. Please.” The little hairs on the back of her neck rose, and she almost ran from the graveside.

I buried Old Pate myself, right there under that willow where you were hiding, and you don’t have his look.

[Callandoril]

I may be jumping ahead in this thread but I do have a question. I Arya IV there is an old woman who dreamt:

“1.I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden

stag, aye.

2. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder

perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.

3. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman

that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke

from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?”

1. Stannis and Melisandre killing Renly via shadow babies.

3. Catelyn foreshadowing of her UnCat role.

I'd like to know your opinion on 2. To me it indicates Balon Greyjoy and his death at the bridge, but the second part '' On his shoulder

perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.'' is the this I can't connect to anything at all.

Edit: Not to mention that she dreamt more(I have yet to re-read this part of Arya's journey so I'm not sure if there's written more of these dreams?) and asks payment for her dreams. Also, what does she foreshadow about Arya?

[Lykos]

You´ll find help here and might be interested in this or this.

ETA: Or better still this one. And great rearead everyone, I love reading it, Arya still just gives me too mixed emotions to participate. :bawl: :tantrum: :lol: :wub: :commie: :leaving:

[Cas Stark]

I may be jumping ahead in this thread but I do have a question. I Arya IV there is an old woman who dreamt:

1. Stannis and Melisandre killing Renly via shadow babies.

3. Catelyn foreshadowing of her UnCat role.

I'd like to know your opinion on 2. To me it indicates Balon Greyjoy and his death at the bridge, but the second part '' On his shoulder

perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.'' is the this I can't connect to anything at all.

Edit: Not to mention that she dreamt more(I have yet to re-read this part of Arya's journey so I'm not sure if there's written more of these dreams?) and asks payment for her dreams. Also, what does she foreshadow about Arya?

I believe most people think its a sign that Euron "crows eye" is who hired the FM to kill Baylon. My worst reading and most crackpost theory is that Arya and her "dark heart" is foreshadowing that she will be the new nissa nissa for the real lightbringer that Jon Snow is going to use, but thats a huge long shot and probably not true.