Who's more to blame, Aerys or Rhaegar?

[mattah84]

Whatever about Aerys being mental and Rhaegar being a fool and Brandon being too hot blooded we all forgot the main reason for the rebellion Lady Whent

Now to defend my choice. Lady Whent decided that in honor of her brother and her house she would throw a massive Tourney/Feast at Harrenhall and Harrenhall is where all shit got crazy. First Jaime Lannister was knighted as a member of the Kingsguard and then sent back to KingsLanding. Then Rhaegar met Lyaanna something went down. Ned also befriended Howland Reed at Harrenhall and Rhaegar ended up winning the Torney which really fucked shit up. Also Ned meeting Ashara Dayne could have been avoided if not for Harrenhall

Therefore the blame lies mainly with Lady Whent

How was Lady Whent supposed to know things would get all crazy at Harrenhal?

She wouldn't know that Rhaegar was going to win the tourney and run away with Lyanna later on.

Aerys should of at least known that calling for Ned and Robert's heads, let along killing Ned's Father and Brother, that thing wouldn't go over smoothly.

The difference being, Lady Whent had no reason to think anything bad would go down by throwing a Tourney in her brother's name, but Aerys Targaryen had every reason to think that his actions wouldn't go over so smoothly, despite him being the king.

Lady When't tourney planted the seeds for certain things to happen, but blaming her for it doesn't seem too legitimate. Thinking along those lines, you could say that Hoster Tully is responsible for Jon Arryn's death because he betrothed Lysa to Jon Arryn, and later on Pertyr Baelish convinced Lysa to poison him.

[mattah84]

Again there was noway for Starks to let it go.Rhaegar had to be trialed either way.Even if Lyanna went willingly he committed a crime against Starks.There are two ways to solve this problem either they kill him or they send him to the wall.Look at this as a RPG.For example Skyrim.If you don't escapre from Helgen then you can't play the rest of the game.Or like in LOTR if Sauron didn't create the ring then there is no story.By kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar starts a chain reaction.What Brandon did was wild but he was right he demanded Rhaegar to face him because it is how he was raised.If Rhaegar appeared after Lyanna and he runaway then maybe Brandon could learned the truth from him.But he never appears until Trident.Aerys is crazy I can't blame him I blame the people who let him stay on power.

Well in the mindsets of the two rebels who called their Banners, there is a pretty drastic difference when it comes to Rhaegar . Robert hated Rhaegar because he ran away with his betrothed. However, despite everything that happened, Eddard seems to remember Rhaegar with a sense of fondness. I agree that it was a cause and effect situation, and that Rhaegar set it off when he ran away with Lyanna. However, did Rickard Stark run down to Kings Landing right away with his son Brandon after Lyanna's supposed kidnapping. No, Brandon was hotheaded so he went alone with his friends to challenge Rhaegar and was imprisoned for it. My point being is this, Rickard Stark, the Warden of the North, hadn't even called his banners after Lyanna's kidnapping yet. He was summoned by Aerys to Kings Landing and he went. When he went to Kings Landing, Aerys killed him and Brandon and called for Ned's head. That is what really set things off.

[jon stark I]

He was joking :lmao:

[jon stark I]

How was Lady Whent supposed to know things would get all crazy at Harrenhal?

She wouldn't know that Rhaegar was going to win the tourney and run away with Lyanna later on.

Aerys should of at least known that calling for Ned and Robert's heads, let along killing Ned's Father and Brother, that thing wouldn't go over smoothly.

The difference being, Lady Whent had no reason to think anything bad would go down by throwing a Tourney in her brother's name, but Aerys Targaryen had every reason to think that his actions wouldn't go over so smoothly, despite him being the king.

Lady When't tourney planted the seeds for certain things to happen, but blaming her for it doesn't seem too legitimate. Thinking along those lines, you could say that Hoster Tully is responsible for Jon Arryn's death because he betrothed Lysa to Jon Arryn, and later on Pertyr Baelish convinced Lysa to poison him.

He was joking :lmao:

[Ygrain]

Everybody seems to be ignoring that we don't know whether Rhaegar and Lyanna contacted anyone, or tried to.

Three points.

First, Aerys wasn't that bad before. He was increasingly paranoid and all, but until the trial of Brandon Stark he hadn't actually done anything really crazy and worthy of being deposed.

Second. deposing the king is a really really bad precedent to make for the new king. It needs to be really thoroughly warranted and widely acclaimed.

Third, Aerys was still the king, still had support of most of the realm (even after the crazy stuff starts he still has support of half the realm!) paranoid and not stupid. If Rhaegar was to do anything it had to be done very very carefully, all correctly and within the legal boundaries and be widely supported. The indications are that he was starting to gather support (not starting to act) for the future.

Summary: actually Rhaegar should not have acted earlier. He had neither solid reason nor support. The shit basically hit the fan all at once at the worst possible time for him, and once it did the rebellion needed to be dealt with and order restored before doing something as unsettling as removing and replacing the king.

But it should have. If they go public then the Starks and/or Baratheons have a target they can do something about - whether its a formal complaint that could see the couple broken up (Aerys distrusts Rhaegar, and chose his first wife remember) or a foolish rescue attempt in which someone gets killed, and there is no going back from there.

With no targets, the only action Rickard can take is to talk to Aerys (who probably agrees with him). While people are talking things can still be sorted out.

But Brandon ruined everything with his incredibly stuipd and selfish and irresponsible actions.

First, you simply cannot just take the law into your own hands. If someone kidnaps your sister you don't get to just go haring after the guy you think might have done it (on what evidence?) with a flamethrower. You just don't. You especially don't when he's the crown prince and its treason, punishable by death to attack him.

Yes, there are things you can do. But what Brandon did was reckless, stupid and inflammatory, and worse, see the second point.

Second, Brandon made no effort on Lyanna's behalf. Sure, we all know (or think we do, me included) that he went to KL because of her abduction, but he made no effort to find her, to ask about her, even to call for her return (as far as we know, from an unbiased eye-witness).

He didn't stand outside the gates and yell "give me back my sister" and then "Rhaegar, you must pay for what you have done".

Nope, he just rode up with a bunch of companions and demanded the crown prince come out and die. Thats treason, gross stupidity, and does nothign toward the return of his sister.

Note that their are indications at Harrenhal that Lyanna may have had something of a crush on Rhaegar, and Brandon must have known both this and that she was none to impressed by being forced to marry Robert.

What it smacks of is an arrogant (and he has many reasons to be arrogant) showpony, upset not about his sister but about the insult to his house).

As best we can tell from the facts we have.

Note also that fiery Brandon lost to Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, so may also have a personal dislike of the melancholy silver prince.

The worst of it?

Its not even heat of the moment. Brandon must have had days, even weeks, to consider his course of action and words before he got to KL.

Frankly I make the 'fault' (ie who did the 'wrong' things the worst and made irrecoverable actions) about 67/33 Brandon/Aerys.

What Rhaegar did should have worked out fine, with some upset people, sorted out with some words and some lands/keeps/titles changing hands.

What Brandon did was stupid, had no chance of any positive result, and was irrecoverable - at that point someone has to die, baring leniency from the King.

What Aerys did was mad in its execution, but Brandon was guilty of a death penalty offense and Rickard had the right to call trial by combat. Leniency might have been the wise course, but not the required course. The execution of that trial though, was insane and calling for Ned and Robert's heads was the final step too far that caused war.

This.

I would only add the historical parallel which might have inspired GRRM - the kidnapping of Isabela of Angouleme by John Lackland. John was at that time married but his wife was barren. He chose Isabela, who was a famed beauty, though very young, and betrothed to a powerful nobleman. Her relatives didn't start a war over it - they went to their sovereign, the king of France, to settle the matter, who, in turn, ordered John to return Isabela (at that time, France was formally the sovereign of England). Only when John refused to obey did any fighting start, and that was no longer over Isabela but over sorting the sovereignty. The war cost John dearly but Isabela became his wife and the mother of his heir.

From this, I conclude that Rhaegar went into hiding to avoid the sitution which broke John's neck - disobeying higher authority. If Rickard had approached Aerys diplomatically and relayed to the royal authority to settle the thing, I doubt very much that any burning would have happened.

[mattah84]

He was joking :lmao:

Oh......where in the post did it say he was joking? Didn't mean to draw a reaction from you by responding to someone else's post. Sorry Jon Stark.

[Im no Ser]

Again there was noway for Starks to let it go.Rhaegar had to be trialed either way.Even if Lyanna went willingly he committed a crime against Starks.

Even if you assume that Rhaegar committed a crime by marrying a highborn girl without her father's permission, the crime is against Rickard, not Brandon and he's exceeding his authority demanding recompense for it. Since I believe Rickard was plotting with Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys, it's very, very likely that he and Rickard work out some face saving solution - Rickard's grandchildren are part of the royal family in this equation, it's hardly as if Lyana has been sold into slavery.

That said, it's fair to assume Brandon believed Lyana was kidnapped. That he would march into the Red Keep and demand that a mad king give him a chance to kill the crown prince is not reasonably foreseeable, especially if R + L thought they'd sent a message explaining their elopement.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Aerys. He was going nuts and it eventually would've come to a head, I think.

This. Aerys. Rhaegar and Lyanna just gave him the opportunity for the madness to shine through and may have accelerated thngs somewhat, but I don't think by all that much give the description of how Aerys was acting towards the end. If it hadn't been that, it would have been something else (probably more directed at Rhaegar than Ned and Robert however).

[The Wolves]

I blame Aerys for much of what happened but I always say that his reign would have ended in a war he was that horrible just like Joffery would have always been murdered.

Anyways Brandon and Rhaegar should have acted better.

[mattah84]

It is simple.Brandon uses harsh words but actually he is demanding a trial by battle.This is all Rhaegars fault.There is no ifs because it all starts with Rhaegars actions.If Brandon did't go to KL or if Aerys didn't kill Rickad and Brandon those are not important what is important is someone who kidnaps a nobles Daughter is punishable by death or the Wall.

It was Rickard Stark that demanded a trial by battle. Brandon Stark strangled himself in a noose trying to get to his father and save him.

[Fetch me a block]

I think Brandon Stark should share some of the blame also

NO. How the hell is it his fault that Rhaegar went mad, abducted and probably raped his sister?. If someone abducted your sister, would you just sit back and let them?

[Fetch me a block]

You should know by now to never post things that in any way, shape, or form say or insinuate that it's a 100% fact that Jon Snow was not the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. As we do not for sure what the deal is with that just yet, and there are numerous people on this board that have the opinion that he could very well be legitimate. We don't know if he is or he isn't only time will tell my friend.

Don't you mean 'we should never assume 100% that Jon Snow is even the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna" because we should not assume he is his son. The people who are behind r + l = j are very confident and arrogant in the theory. It makes me fucking fume.

[Ygrain]

NO. How the hell is it his fault that Rhaegar went mad, abducted and probably raped his sister?. If someone abducted your sister, would you just sit back and let them?

If I was the abducted sister, I would expect that the person doing something about it would actually use their tiny brain and contact those who would be in a better position to act, as well as choose a way that wouldn't put him into an even bigger shit (treason) than I was in. Also, I'd much appreciate if the person showed some care about my well-being, as, IMHO, getting their beloved sister released should be a priority over killing the offender. If any of these were not possible, I'd at least expect them to check if the offender was at home beforehand.

Seriously: there were quite a few things which Brandon could have done which definitely wouldn't have ended up with him imprisoned and murdered.

[The Wolves]

NO. How the hell is it his fault that Rhaegar went mad, abducted and probably raped his sister?. If someone abducted your sister, would you just sit back and let them?

No Brandon should not just do nothing but common sense should tell someone not to go into someone's territory with just a few men to back you up and demand their head.

Brandon put many man's lives at risk bringing them into Kingslanding where the King and his royal family had ultimate power there and demanded that the crown prince come out and die.

And Brandon was not over House Stark than Rickard was and whatever he did regarding Lyanna Rickard should have been the one to approve any action taken in getting Lyanna back.

[Jon Icefyre]

Don't you mean 'we should never assume 100% that Jon Snow is even the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna" because we should not assume he is his son. The people who are behind r + l = j are very confident and arrogant in the theory. It makes me fucking fume.

Yep and that confidence only rises by the day so deal with it....Sorry but based on the fact that you said earlier that Rhaegar "probably raped Lyanna" I doubt you have a stronger alternative theory.

[Top Notch Balanter]

Oh......where in the post did it say he was joking? Didn't mean to draw a reaction from you by responding to someone else's post. Sorry Jon Stark.

Sorry should have made it more obvious it was a joke although if i went to the bother of it and expanded the post you could put up an argument against Lady Whent which would be as strong as about 50% of arguments on the boards

[jon stark I]

No I am saying that Brandon was wild so he couldn't say kindly I want a trial by battle but instead he says get me the bloody prince.Brandon probably feled himself all along the way think about it your sister is abducted you wait for someone to do something but noone does anything.So Brandon fuels his hatred and finally he acts like he did.And I think his father knew what Brandon was going to do.I mean Lyanna and Rhaegar were off the grid one was surfaced on Trident the other was found after the rebellion ended.I mean Rhaegar could have send a raven or someone to talk for himself but there were no effort to even contact by him or the throne.If Brandons trip really took weeks then it makes it even worse.

It was Rickard Stark that demanded a trial by battle. Brandon Stark strangled himself in a noose trying to get to his father and save him.

I know how it all happened.What I am saying is Brandon actually demanded Rhaegar to fight him as an tiral of battle but he choose the wrong words.

Brandon can't search anywhere because how can he found crown place in foreign lands where IT is supoorted?If Lyanna was abducted and carried to the North then he could have find him but Dorne, not a chance.I am not saying Brandon said the right things but he did what he can.

Oh......where in the post did it say he was joking? Didn't mean to draw a reaction from you by responding to someone else's post. Sorry Jon Stark.

I wasn't dissing you.I thought it had to be a joke.

Even if you assume that Rhaegar committed a crime by marrying a highborn girl without her father's permission, the crime is against Rickard, not Brandon and he's exceeding his authority demanding recompense for it. Since I believe Rickard was plotting with Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys, it's very, very likely that he and Rickard work out some face saving solution - Rickard's grandchildren are part of the royal family in this equation, it's hardly as if Lyana has been sold into slavery.

That said, it's fair to assume Brandon believed Lyana was kidnapped. That he would march into the Red Keep and demand that a mad king give him a chance to kill the crown prince is not reasonably foreseeable, especially if R + L thought they'd sent a message explaining their elopement.

Crime is kidnapping and raping because Starks don't accept Targeryan way of multiple partners.Rhaegar was alrady married and even if he married Lyanna its still an insult.As far as we know there is no divorce or I didn't saw one in Westeros.So in this situation Lyanna is a mistress in Starks eyes.I think Brandon had his fathers permission but he did go way more then agreed probably Brandon was permitted to talk for his fathers place but he takes that permission and acts too boldly.I think Rickard tought that the worst thing Aerys would have arrrested Brandon he never tought something like this could have happened.

[mattah84]

No I am saying that Brandon was wild so he couldn't say kindly I want a trial by battle but instead he says get me the bloody prince.Brandon probably feled himself all along the way think about it your sister is abducted you wait for someone to do something but noone does anything.So Brandon fuels his hatred and finally he acts like he did.And I think his father knew what Brandon was going to do.I mean Lyanna and Rhaegar were off the grid one was surfaced on Trident the other was found after the rebellion ended.I mean Rhaegar could have send a raven or someone to talk for himself but there were no effort to even contact by him or the throne.If Brandons trip really took weeks then it makes it even worse.

I know how it all happened.What I am saying is Brandon actually demanded Rhaegar to fight him as an tiral of battle but he choose the wrong words.

Brandon can't search anywhere because how can he found crown place in foreign lands where IT is supoorted?If Lyanna was abducted and carried to the North then he could have find him but Dorne, not a chance.I am not saying Brandon said the right things but he did what he can.

I wasn't dissing you.I thought it had to be a joke.

Crime is kidnapping and raping because Starks don't accept Targeryan way of multiple partners.Rhaegar was alrady married and even if he married Lyanna its still an insult.As far as we know there is no divorce or I didn't saw one in Westeros.So in this situation Lyanna is a mistress in Starks eyes.I think Brandon had his fathers permission but he did go way more then agreed probably Brandon was permitted to talk for his fathers place but he takes that permission and acts too boldly.I think Rickard tought that the worst thing Aerys would have arrrested Brandon he never tought something like this could have happened.

I didn't know that Brandon demanded a trial by combat with Rhaegar. I thought that he just threatened his life, and because of that Aerys imprisoned him. Wanting to kill Rhaegar, and requesting to fight him in a trial by combat, despite the similarities, are still two different things.

My bad on the joke part. LOL. I should of recognized that you were saying it must of been a joke, and I probably should of recognized that he really may have been joking.

Also, I don't know if Brandon really had time to talk out the situation with his father Rickard and get his blessing to go to Kings Landing. Rickard probably would of recognized the folly in that plan, but Brandon on the other hand couldn't recognize it because he is described as a hothead. Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Catelyn Stark when he recieved word of it. Whether Rickard was with him or not, we don't know, but Brandon's friends were with him and they went down to Kings Landing. If Rickard was there maybe he did give Brandon permission, maybe he would of tried to talk him out of it, but we don't really know if Rickard was with him or not on the way to Riverrun. I tend to think that Rickard wasn't there, because he probably wouldn't allow his hotheaded to son to go speak with the King on his own, let alone go to Kings Landing to approach the King and threaten Rhaegar's life.

[Jon Icefyre]

No I am saying that Brandon was wild so he couldn't say kindly I want a trial by battle but instead he says get me the bloody prince.Brandon probably feled himself all along the way think about it your sister is abducted you wait for someone to do something but noone does anything.So Brandon fuels his hatred and finally he acts like he did.And I think his father knew what Brandon was going to do.I mean Lyanna and Rhaegar were off the grid one was surfaced on Trident the other was found after the rebellion ended.I mean Rhaegar could have send a raven or someone to talk for himself but there were no effort to even contact by him or the throne.If Brandons trip really took weeks then it makes it even worse.

I know how it all happened.What I am saying is Brandon actually demanded Rhaegar to fight him as an tiral of battle but he choose the wrong words.

Brandon can't search anywhere because how can he found crown place in foreign lands where IT is supoorted?If Lyanna was abducted and carried to the North then he could have find him but Dorne, not a chance.I am not saying Brandon said the right things but he did what he can.

I wasn't dissing you.I thought it had to be a joke.

Crime is kidnapping and raping because Starks don't accept Targeryan way of multiple partners.Rhaegar was alrady married and even if he married Lyanna its still an insult.As far as we know there is no divorce or I didn't saw one in Westeros.So in this situation Lyanna is a mistress in Starks eyes.I think Brandon had his fathers permission but he did go way more then agreed probably Brandon was permitted to talk for his fathers place but he takes that permission and acts too boldly.I think Rickard tought that the worst thing Aerys would have arrrested Brandon he never tought something like this could have happened.

Having sex with someone that is not you're wife has nothing to do with rape. Cat thinks Ned fathered a bastard in their first year of marriage I guess that means Ned would have raped whoever he would have cheated on her with by you're definition. Ned never acknowledges/confirms Rhaegar raped his sister and if Rhaegar really did i'm sure Ned would have had some haunting thoughts about it, which we know he doesn't. The whole rape theory is a fabrication stirred and supported mainly if only by Robert. There's no Stark past or present that flat out say they think Rhaegar raped Lyanna. And we have POV's from other characters like Ser Barristan that suggest their relatonship was the complete opposite of rape... So i'm sorry but rape is out of the question.

[jon stark I]

I am not saying he raped her I am saying that is how Brandon sees it.Having sex with someone who is almost the wife of a highborn lord is really low.And nobody knows if lyanna went willingly or not.So they assume it was rape and abduction.Now they think like that because they have to think Lyanna like a responsible honorable lady otherwise it will damage the whole honorable Stark view