kg1982 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Okay.. here are a few thoughts1. The Bill of Rights guarantees the right for individuals to have guns with reasonable restrictions. I'm not sure a ban on quite popular guns like the hand guns used in the shootings is possible. Frankly, I'm a huge fan of the broad guarantees in the Bill of Rights. Europe doesn't have such a concept and I think they've suffered for it. I'd hate to live in a country that didn't have an absolute First Amendment right to freedom of speech. It seems that there are lots of countries in danger of having legit criticism of the ruling elite outlawed.2. No, crazed gangs don't generally break into houses and murder individuals although there was a horrific home invasion in CT a few years back.. a mother and her two daughters were brutally raped and burned alive..; however there are reasons that a reasonable citizen might want a gun. A woman with an abusive ex for instance or a community activist. One of the main plaintiffs in the Chicago handgun ban case was a black activist working to eradicate gun violence on the South Side of Chicago.3. It seems the main issue is mental health, mainly schizophrenia. We really have to do a better job taking care a really troubled twenty-something men in American society and getting them into institutions. It does seem the more violent video games as well as the constant media attention.. with graphics! play a factor, but even there that is correlation rather than causation. However, even with mental health, I'm sort of concerned. I'd hate someone to be tagged for that. I was an odd duck in high school and I'm sure that quite a few people posting on the ASOIAF forum weren't hanging with the popular kids in high school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm sure that quite a few people posting on the ASOIAF forum weren't hanging with the popular kids in high school...Speak for yourself on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 EDIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Have to disagree with video games causing anything.Maybe im just old and from a different era but i blame the political correctness movement and letting government raise children.If you were bullied, you either did something about it or you didnt, either way there was no illusion about where you were fitting in. If you are social weirdo your peers will point that shit out to you without being trained or prompted to do so.Yes kids are mean and bullying happens. Pain can be a powerful tool, you can make adjustments to avoid further anguish. Teach kids to step up for themselves and not snitch out. The once strong American public education system punks down when parent complain about little Johnny getting his feelings hurt and then force feed solutions and change policies of snitchery, awareness and sensitivity.If you dont want to be a labeled a booger eater then dont eat your fucking boogers in public.If you dont want to get bullied stand up for your shit and let the bully know he will have to beat your ass everyday, he will move on to somebody who doesnt fight back. Those who dont stand up will do the same or figure out how to cope, the power has ben given to the weakest link.Again, bullying should not be tolerated, it should be dealt with immediately, not by the parent, the schools, the policr, or the government. It should be dealt with by the person being bullied.When I was in school if my parents would have went to the schools trying to get policies changed over hurt feelings, they would have went back home with their own hurt feelings.School would have been like "We got this, perhaps you should go home and be a parent and maybe your socially awkward freako spazoid kid would, should, and could be accepted by others and not grow up and become a freak and ax murderer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_not_appearing_yet Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Okay.. here are a few thoughts1. The Bill of Rights guarantees the right for individuals to have guns with reasonable restrictions. I'm not sure a ban on quite popular guns like the hand guns used in the shootings is possible. Frankly, I'm a huge fan of the broad guarantees in the Bill of Rights. Europe doesn't have such a concept and I think they've suffered for it. I'd hate to live in a country that didn't have an absolute First Amendment right to freedom of speech. It seems that there are lots of countries in danger of having legit criticism of the ruling elite outlawed.2. No, crazed gangs don't generally break into houses and murder individuals although there was a horrific home invasion in CT a few years back.. a mother and her two daughters were brutally raped and burned alive..; however there are reasons that a reasonable citizen might want a gun. A woman with an abusive ex for instance or a community activist. One of the main plaintiffs in the Chicago handgun ban case was a black activist working to eradicate gun violence on the South Side of Chicago.3. It seems the main issue is mental health, mainly schizophrenia. We really have to do a better job taking care a really troubled twenty-something men in American society and getting them into institutions. It does seem the more violent video games as well as the constant media attention.. with graphics! play a factor, but even there that is correlation rather than causation. However, even with mental health, I'm sort of concerned. I'd hate someone to be tagged for that. I was an odd duck in high school and I'm sure that quite a few people posting on the ASOIAF forum weren't hanging with the popular kids in high school...Good luck with that. You have a population of over 300 million. Whatever you do, some people will slip through the cracks. Its inevitable.I don't think its possible to completely eliminate people like this from society. I think its better to focus on damage limitation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Just curious - where in the US does the government raise children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Just curious - where in the US does the government raise children?In all 50 states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str8 outta Old Town Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Here are some response from the last threas:Actually the ability to defend themselves has helped THOUSANDS of people NOT to become crime' date=' rape, etc. CATOS paper on guns cites more instances where people have used the burglars gun against them rather than having their own gun turned against them. (Ive given that link previously) Owning a gun in a society where crime exists and police do not and can not respond instantaneously is very rational. Ive posted many links about the vast numbers of people saved from crime because of the gun they owned. It is wrong to say they must suffer because someone, somewhere else, may use a gun inappropriately. People are not interchangeable. Banning guns to save a life is immoral when that gun ban can and will cost lives as people are stripped of their ability to protect their lives and property.[/quote']The statistics on gun self-defence come from phone polls, and are totally unreliable. They claim that more burglaries are stopped by guns than the total number of burglaries which occur every year in America. Evidently, gun owners often report using their guns in self-defence as part of their Dirty Harry fantasies, when they have not actually done so.The statistics clearly show that gun owners have more murders in their houses than non-gun owners. Admittedly many of these murders are commited by the gun owners, but it's still a good reason not to have a gun. And that's without counting the gun owners who unnecessarly escalate situations because they think that if someone punches them on the nose for being a dick, they can probably get away with shooting him.I don't argue that the US should make the immediate transition to unarmed police. It should first become an unarmed society' date=' a process that would take at least 30 years.That's not what I said, I asked why they would allow guns. My later more nuanced post explained that the private citizen expecting to have to defend himself is the hallmark of an uncivilised society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 If you're going to argue about the role of the government in raising children, start another thread, please.Whoever talked about putting schizophrenics and other mentally ill people in institutions should know that most of those got closed down decades ago. Care in the community is the preferred approach now, and it can be discussed in the mental health and treatment thread (also in GC).Back to gun control in this thread, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Back to gun control in this thread, thanks.Just to be clear, On this thread, are we not allowed to present any other options for stopping gun violence than government laws(gun control)?Or is this thread strictly only allowed to debate gun laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Just to be clear, On this thread, are we not allowed to present any other options for stopping gun violence than government laws(gun control)?Or is this thread strictly only allowed to debate gun laws?Are you seriously suggesting that letting kids be bullied and harassed is "another option" for stopping gun violence?Your entire post was heinously stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Are you seriously suggesting that letting kids be bullied and harassed is "another option" for stopping gun violence?Your entire post was heinously stupid.No, if you read my post I specifically said bullying is to not be tolerated. Your post shows that your reading comprehension is weak, either that or you didnt read the whole thing. Both raising questions about your self proclaimed authority on deciding what is and isnt stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Every time there is an incident where numbers of innocent people are killed by someone using a gun, the cry goes up that more gun control is needed to keep guns out of the hands of nuts. But, if the counterargument that it is better to keep nuts where they have no access to guns, cannot be raised, the deck is being stacked in favor of one side. Consequently, I'm withdrawing from the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRaggedWildling Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 @ Raidne: No, as I remember, the program was for any gun, legal or not. It was a couple of years ago, so I may be incorrect.Regardless, we got them all checked out. There were only two competition pistols, which we sold to a family friend who, well, competes. The collectibles we donated to his gun club.The ones we didn't sell/give to other firearm collectors were pretty much your standard run-of-the-mill pistol/shotgun/rifle deal, which my family was not interested in keeping. The overwhelming majority of the guns he had were stockpiled in case of WW3.Besides, the police were happy to take them, and we were happy to give them. His opinions on the matter were moot, since he never even told us about the freaken armory he had literally strewn about his house unsecured. A pistol under each pillow on his bed, a shotgun mounted on the side, with 3 rifles in the closet, all loaded? I support firearm ownership, but give me a break. Sometimes something is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maid of woodlynne Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Forget it. This post had no place in a gun control thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I was bullied every day for 3 years in grammar school. I stood up for myself. I was never a "socially awkward freako spazoid kid" nor did I grow up to be a "freak and ax murderer." I was smart and quiet. And I stood up for myself. Every time I did, the bullying got progressively worse. You know what stopped the bullying? Middle school. I got away from the insecure assholes by getting lost in a bigger crowd. You know what I never did? I never sought out revenge. I would bet that most kids who were habitually bullied just wanted to be left alone. At least that's what I wanted. Don't blame what happened in CT on bullying. And leave it out of this thread about gun control.Nice story, but the world isnt about you personally or your stories. There are many, many, other people in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maid of woodlynne Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Nice story, but the world isnt about you personally or your stories. There are many, many, other people in it.You're right. I deleted my post before I even saw your reply.I fail to see what your post re: bullying has to do with gun control, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str8 outta Old Town Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Every time there is an incident where numbers of innocent people are killed by someone using a gun, the cry goes up that more gun control is needed to keep guns out of the hands of nuts. But, if the counterargument that it is better to keep nuts where they have no access to guns, cannot be raised, the deck is being stacked in favor of one side. Consequently, I'm withdrawing from the conversation.You think your freedom to own a gun outweighs the freedom of people not to be summararily detained on suspiscion of having mental health issues?That is a really weird interpretation of freedom, not to mention a totally impractical plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 You're right. I deleted my post before I even saw your reply.I fail to see what your post re: bullying has to do with gun control, though.Im making the case that it is another option to decreasing gun violence other than debating gun laws.Thats why I asked are we allowed to discuss ways to decrease gun violence, or is this thread strictly only about debating gun laws (gun control) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I also admit the possibility my post was overly aggressive and rant-ish.Just very shocking about what happened in CT.I just dont think the government has the ability to help us out with this, we are going to have to do it ourselves.And calling each others posts stupid isnt going to get us anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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