Is Dany actually the ANTAGONIST?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, I don't. It's completely illogical to assume dragon dominance because "dragon" is used in the name. Dragons vs Others are completely untested as of yet. We have no reason to believe that the mega-apocalyse that wipes out everything in its path is going to cow down to dragonz.

This is a highly symbolic series, and seriously, unless you want to make a legit argument for the elemental dominance of dragonpeppers too, it is absolutely not illogical to believe that dragonz are not the end0-all-be-all trump card of the Others.

And I've already posted an excerpt from the Night's Watch fighting Others above the Wall — the fire doesn't stop them. They put. the fire. Out.

[David Selig]

THANK YOU !!!!

We have yet to see her from an objective POV. But I think Tyrion's thoughts will show us her true colors, so to speak.

There's no objective PoV in this series.

And when Tyrion sees her, given him extreme weakness for beautiful women not named Cersei, chances are he'll only be able to think with his cock and wouldn't be remotely objective.

[OberynBlackfyre]

How did she know that the people she crucified were the ones who killed the children? (Spoiler: She didn't. For all she knows Hizdahr helped.) I consider torturing the wineseller's daughters — knowing she won't get anything useful out of it, but doing it out of petty childish spite — to be over the top violence and sadistic.

The firebombing of Dresden was a war crime that wasn't prosecuted only because the perpetrators won the war. I see absolutely nothing defensible about it so I'd avoid that road if I were you.

that's the whole point-it was war. People are killing each other. I understand you don't like Daenerys and the Targs in general, but by far Dany has done much more help than harm, and had good intentions. People like her, and hate her, for a reason. If we look at why she is loved, to why she is hated then I think that's where we would find her true morality.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

that's the whole point-it was war. People are killing each other. I understand you don't like Daenerys and the Targs in general, but by far Dany has done much more help than harm, and had good intentions. People like her, and hate her, for a reason. If we look at why she is loved, to why she is hated then I think that's where we would find her true morality.

There is a such a thing as proper conduct in war. And I appreciate that we're in a pre-Geneva society here, but that doesn't mean that war crimes should be shrugged off as, "Shit happens." Instead of insinuating things like, "Well even heroes sometimes do awful things like torture," maybe the tack should be, "If you torture someone, you're not a hero."

As to the bolded part:

1. I do not believe she's done more good than harm for a second. An entire region is destabilized, tens of thousands and maybe even hundreds of thousands of people are dead through armed conflict, disease and starvation, an economic system is destroyed (not just slavery, but any kind of trade) ... where is the "good" that outweighs all of that?

2. Good intentions pave the road to hell and aren't worth shit if the good outcome isn't there.

[Brandon the Shipwright]

There are so many signs that Dany is the chosen one, I do not think she is the antagonist. I believe that she is the true heroine of the series, but she is imperfect like all of GRRM's characters, so there are times when she may do things that could be considered evil. The lack of another sympathetic or heroic candidate for the Iron Throne proves that Dany is the one we are meant to root for in the war for the throne.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There are so many signs that Dany is the chosen one, I do not think she is the antagonist. I believe that she is the true heroine of the series, but she is imperfect like all of GRRM's characters, so there are times when she may do things that could be considered evil. The lack of another sympathetic or heroic candidate for the Iron Throne proves that Dany is the one we are meant to root for in the war for the throne.

:shocked:

As for all of these "signs" -> The Flaming Red Herring Above the World

[Ribupr]

There's no objective PoV in this series.

And when Tyrion sees her, given him extreme weakness for beautiful women not named Cersei, chances are he'll only be able to think with his cock and wouldn't be remotely objective.

SO NOT TRUE ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY

Jon: other than Cat, he is seen in the same light as Ned. Stannis says so. Mel likes him. Arya, Robb, Bran, Ned all say he is a good guy.

Ned: everyone loves Ned except Cercei. Or at least respect him.

Tyrion: other than Jon and Varys no one really likes him so its hard to argue for him

you can go thru the POV's throughout the books and almost every character gets seen as they really are...except Dany. And when she does, its by unobjective ppl

[Dr. Pepper]

They put. the fire. Out.

But...but...dragonz!!!! There's absolutely nothing symbolic about that scene because DRAGONZ!!!!!

[Ribupr]

There are so many signs that Dany is the chosen one, I do not think she is the antagonist. I believe that she is the true heroine of the series, but she is imperfect like all of GRRM's characters, so there are times when she may do things that could be considered evil. The lack of another sympathetic or heroic candidate for the Iron Throne proves that Dany is the one we are meant to root for in the war for the throne.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I read that high. And i laughed soooo hard.

THE CHOSEN ONE? HAHAHA

Harry Potter much? The Matrix much?

[butterbumps!]

There are so many signs that Dany is the chosen one, I do not think she is the antagonist. I believe that she is the true heroine of the series, but she is imperfect like all of GRRM's characters, so there are times when she may do things that could be considered evil. The lack of another sympathetic or heroic candidate for the Iron Throne proves that Dany is the one we are meant to root for in the war for the throne.

:lmao:

Is this a joke?

[setmyheartafire]

No, I don't. It's completely illogical to assume dragon dominance because "dragon" is used in the name. Dragons vs Others are completely untested as of yet. We have no reason to believe that the mega-apocalyse that wipes out everything in its path is going to cow down to dragonz.

This is a highly symbolic series, and seriously, unless you want to make a legit argument for the elemental dominance of dragonpeppers too, it is absolutely not illogical to believe that dragonz are not the end0-all-be-all trump card of the Others.

Except that dragon peppers aren't referred to as harmful to the Others nor are they dangerous, magical hot fire breathing beasts. *This* is completely illogical as an argument. Dragons are by canonical history a weapon of warfare. Dragonpeppers are not.

This argument is like saying that we've seen nuclear blast and nuclear bombs devastate populations, but that doesn't mean that a nuclear bomb fallout will be harmful at all because we also nuke frozen dinners but nuking frozen dinners hasnt slain a population yet.

After reading this for so long, I for one hope Melisandre squirts an other right in the eye with a dragonpepper and it falls over in a hissing steaming pile of other goo.

Only half kidding ;)

[David Selig]

SO NOT TRUE ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY

Jon: other than Cat, he is seen in the same light as Ned. Stannis says so. Mel likes him. Arya, Robb, Bran, Ned all say he is a good guy.

Ned: everyone loves Ned except Cercei. Or at least respect him.

Tyrion: other than Jon and Varys no one really likes him so its hard to argue for him

you can go thru the POV's throughout the books and almost every character gets seen as they really are...except Dany. And when she does, its by unobjective ppl

Evidently you misunderstood me. There's no objective PoV in the series because that's the way it's written - 3rd person limited PoV. So Tyrion seeing Dany in a certain way won't be the objective truth about her, but his own subjective and limited by his knowledge views.

[Ribupr]

There are so many signs that Dany is the chosen one, I do not think she is the antagonist. I believe that she is the true heroine of the series, but she is imperfect like all of GRRM's characters, so there are times when she may do things that could be considered evil. The lack of another sympathetic or heroic candidate for the Iron Throne proves that Dany is the one we are meant to root for in the war for the throne.

You,sir, made my day.

Have you thought of doing standup comedy full time? Or in person?

[jons nissa]

If Dany nuked KL she'd be a "bad guy" to a lot more people than Jaime, Cersei, Brienne. This is exactly the crime her father was about to commit before Jaime blessedly put him out to pasture. I think and act like blowing up KL would make whoever did it a mustache twirling villain, tbh.

i hadn't thought of that before, bumps, but the symmetry of these two is strong. wonder if grrm could have her torch king's landing to "save" it.

[Ribupr]

Evidently you misunderstood me. There's no objective PoV in the series because that's the way it's written - 3rd person limited PoV. So Tyrion seeing Dany in a certain way won't be the objective truth about her, but his own subjective and limited by his knowledge views.

Yes i did misunderstand you. My bad.

But still Tyrions POV will be way more of and insight than Selmy and Dany.

Varys and Illyrio are ppl Tyrion could call friends but he still sees them objectively. Why not Dany.

[Top12Gun]

The problem with Dany is this: In her naivete, she often makes impulsive and idealistic decisions that have far reaching consequences. When her advisers tell her of these consequences, she ignores them. No one doubts her good intentions, but as Apple stated, intentions, in and of themselves, mean absolutely NOTHING. And Dany's behavior is often reckless and poorly thought out, causing way too much collateral damage. She's a bull in a china shop, and anyone who thinks otherwise should go read every one of her chapters in ADWD.

[setmyheartafire]

I don't think there IS anything symbolic in that scene.

Glass is super cold when it's out in the super cold and it's super cold in the North.

It does not mean it is frozen like ice is frozen. Sorry.

[butterbumps!]

Except that dragon peppers aren't referred to as harmful to the Others nor are they dangerous, magical hot fire breathing beasts. *This* is completely illogical as an argument. Dragons are by canonical history a weapon of warfare. Dragonpeppers are not.

This argument is like saying that we've seen nuclear blast and nuclear bombs devastate populations, but that doesn't mean that a nuclear bomb fallout will be harmful at all because we also nuke frozen dinners but nuking frozen dinners hasnt slain a population yet.

After reading this for so long, I for one hope Melisandre squirts an other right in the eye with a dragonpepper and it falls over in a hissing steaming pile of other goo.

Only half kidding ;)

But dragons have never been specified as weapon against the Others either. We aren't talking about sheep, or stone or men here. We're talking about a natural force that is incredibly powerful, so powerful in fact that it destroys life as completely as dragonflame.

I don't think there IS anything symbolic in that scene.

Glass is super cold when it's out in the super cold and it's super cold in the North.

It does not mean it is frozen like ice is frozen. Sorry.

The very fact that it is referred to as "frozen flame" is where the symbolism comes from. That it is crystallized lava invokes duality.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

There is a such a thing as proper conduct in war. And I appreciate that we're in a pre-Geneva society here, but that doesn't mean that war crimes should be shrugged off as, "Shit happens." Instead of insinuating things like, "Well even heroes sometimes do awful things like torture," maybe the tack should be, "If you torture someone, you're not a hero."

As to the bolded part:

1. I do not believe she's done more good than harm for a second. An entire region is destabilized, tens of thousands and maybe even hundreds of thousands of people are dead through armed conflict, disease and starvation, an economic system is destroyed (not just slavery, but any kind of trade) ... where is the "good" that outweighs all of that?

2. Good intentions pave the road to hell and aren't worth shit if the good outcome isn't there.

Also, there is very little good intentions in here. She lies to herself, but her actions suggest otherwise.

She only turns anti-slavery when doing so gets her a free army without paying for it.

Then, she later legalizes slavery.

You CANNOT be anti-slavery and legalize slavery. It's not like she has to compromise. She had plenty of other options to the problem of things being so bad people wanted to go back to being slaves.

Her good intentions either cost her little (like claiming the raped Lamb women as her slaves rather than telling Drogo that slavery is wrong) or simply benefit her.

Except that dragon peppers aren't referred to as harmful to the Others nor are they dangerous, magical hot fire breathing beasts. *This* is completely illogical as an argument. Dragons are by canonical history a weapon of warfare. Dragonpeppers are not.

This argument is like saying that we've seen nuclear blast and nuclear bombs devastate populations, but that doesn't mean that a nuclear bomb fallout will be harmful at all because we also nuke frozen dinners but nuking frozen dinners hasnt slain a population yet.

After reading this for so long, I for one hope Melisandre squirts an other right in the eye with a dragonpepper and it falls over in a hissing steaming pile of other goo.

Only half kidding ;)

Except there is no evidence that dragons ever fought the Others. Other things that have dragon in the name, but nothing about actual dragons.

I think it's likely dragons can mess up the Others (and vise verse), but the "dragon" names are hardly conclusive proof.

Yes i did misunderstand you. My bad.

But still Tyrions POV will be way more of and insight than Selmy and Dany.

Varys and Illyrio are ppl Tyrion could call friends but he still sees them objectively. Why not Dany.

Because she's a woman. That is what the poster was arguing. Tyrion tends to be blind to women he wants to sleep with.

The problem with Dany is this: In her naivete, she often makes impulsive and idealistic decisions that have far reaching consequences. When her advisers tell her of these consequences, she ignores them. No one doubts her good intentions, but as Apple stated, intentions, in and of themselves, mean absolutely NOTHING. And Dany's behavior is often reckless and poorly thought out, causing way too much collateral damage. She's a bull in a china shop, and anyone who thinks otherwise should go read every one of her chapters in ADWD.

*waves hand* I do.

She tells herself she has good intentions because she is not a total monster like Gregor, Ramsay, or even Tywin. But I don't see actual "good intentions" that 1) don't directly benefit her (example: becoming anti-slavery when required to pay for slave army) and/or 2) require to make actual sacrifice (as I said above, she claimed the Lamb women as slaves rather than arguing with Drogo that slavery - then, being used to fund her war effort - was wrong, she never said a damn thing about the men slaughtered or enslaved).

[setmyheartafire]

But I could go about referring to obsidian as frozen flame also. And it is still just solidified, transparent, brittle molten rock. Not ice.