Heresy 34

[Ser Leftwich]

I think blowing the horn of Joramun would break the black magic blood spells and the physical Wall will come tumbling down. The positive thing is, it would also restore the magical Wall, which in turn could possibly prevent White Walkers from passing.

snip

@ Feather

So in your theory, there is a magical wall that is being covered with a second physical/magical wall? There are magical wards on the Wall currently that prevent CH from passing and may or may not prevent the White Walkers from passing.

In your main theory above, what purpose did the original magical Wall serve?

[Iceborn]

The line "they cannot pass the wall while the men of the night's watch remain true" could be a hint that the wall relies on people to keep it working against the others, I doubt that a treachery would be enough to break it, but spilling the blood of a king of winter on the ice, that's powerful add the treachery side to it and I can see the wall failing, even though the men taught they where saving the watch.

[Melifeather]

snip

@ Feather

So in your theory, there is a magical wall that is being covered with a second physical/magical wall? There are magical wards on the Wall currently that prevent CH from passing and may or may not prevent the White Walkers from passing.

In your main theory above, what purpose did the original magical Wall serve?

Coldhands is an elevated form of wight...a one of a kind creature and perhaps the Last Hero as well, so he isn't the same form as White Walkers, so no, he cannot pass. But yes, I think there is a second physical Wall built on top of the invisible magical Wall and has blood magic woven into it that has interfered with its original purpose. The original purpose was supposed to be a line between the realms of men and magic. The First Men were supposed to stay out and their building of the Fist of the FM was the aggression that set off the White Walkers in the first place.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'm saying ever since the Wall was woven with black magic blood spells, the magical ward of the Children has been cross-wired, and if it doesn't come down soon, the White Walkers are going to be able to pass. Wights cannot pass however, since they're basically zombies, but the White Walkers will be able to pass.

I have not seen any indication that the wall is weakening short of the Night's Watch. Why do you think it is weakening and moreso, why do you feel the weakening of the ward will allow white walkers but not wights?

[Melifeather]

Another idea that I've seen elsewhere on the forum is that since the horn wakes giants from the earth, that there are actually fyreworms (spelling?) laying dormant somewhere. Perhaps that was the missing part from the story of the Last Hero? If the Children just reminded the Last Hero that obsidian kills White Walkers, it doesn't seem as if that would be a very effective way to defeat the others. But, if you had a horn of Joramun that you could blow and call forth hot, fiery fyreworms to do your will, that would be awesome! LOL

ETA correct spelling of firewyrms: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Firewyrms

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just a little ode I found a little while ago....

It's winter in Minnesota

And the gentle breezes blow,

70 miles per hour at 52 below!

Oh, how I love Minnesota

When the snow's up to your butt;

You take a breath of winter air

And your nose is frozen shut.

Yes, the weather here is wonderful,

You may think I'm a fool.

I could never leave Minnesota,

Cause I'm frozen to the stool.

Har!

[Tyryan Lannister]

snip

The Starks watch the watchmen. Has there been an Ozymandias Stark?

There was an Osric Stark who became LC at the age of like 10... maybe this is a hint towards the Starks being the watchers of the watchers? (Ozymandias was the alias of one of the Watchmen, and he was a child prodigy... being chosen LC at the age of ten could also be indicative of being a child prodigy, or it could simply be because he was a Stark, or maybe both)

[Melifeather]

I have not seen any indication that the wall is weakening short of the Night's Watch. Why do you think it is weakening and moreso, why do you feel the weakening of the ward will allow white walkers but not wights?

I think the White Walkers could already pass if they wanted to. They just haven't because of the timing of these Wild Hunts that Black Crow brought up. That would put the physical Wall age at about 2000 years ago. I think the meaning of "they cannot pass as long as the Watch remains true" has warped over the thousands of years. It was probably a warning from the Children for the original Night's Watch. If the Night's Watch made sure no one settled beyond the Wall, then when the White Walkers ventured south during the winter months, no one needed to fear...the Children were holding back the worst of winter and so White Walkers should be kept to a minimum and the obsidian blades should be sufficient.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I think the White Walkers could already pass if they wanted to. They just haven't because of the timing of these Wild Hunts that Black Crow brought up. That would put the physical Wall age at about 2000 years ago. I think the meaning of "they cannot pass as long as the Watch remains true" has warped over the thousands of years. It was probably a warning from the Children for the original Night's Watch. If the Night's Watch made sure no one settled beyond the Wall, then when the White Walkers ventured south during the winter months, no one needed to fear...the Children were holding back the worst of winter and so White Walkers should be kept to a minimum and the obsidian blades should be sufficient.

What is the basis of there being a different construction date for the wards vs the physical wall?

[Ser Leftwich]

Coldhands is an elevated form of wight...a one of a kind creature and perhaps the Last Hero as well, so he isn't the same form as White Walkers, so no, he cannot pass. But yes, I think there is a second physical Wall built on top of the invisible magical Wall and has blood magic woven into it that has interfered with its original purpose. The original purpose was supposed to be a line between the realms of men and magic. The First Men were supposed to stay out and their building of the Fist of the FM was the aggression that set off the White Walkers in the first place.

To paraphrase (I am trying to wrap my head around this), with your original magical Wall, the CotF made a magical 'line in the sand' and said, "Humans don't go over this or you really will need those obsidian daggers we have been giving you!"

Did this magic only Wall do anything, did ward anything from crossing it? My concern is that it seems as if your magic only Wall didn't do anything, because the First Men could/did cross it.

Also, if it was a line of magic/men, why were the CotF still living south of the line?

I have a over-developed left brain, so I over-analyze every detail. I think that the mix of left and right brains make Heresy better. :box:

[Black Crow]

I think there's a danger of overcomplicating things in separating the physical and magical elements of the Wall. While we have talked in the past of its physical form being like hoar frost on a magical window frame, I think on balance that the two are one and the same: that the Wall is exactly that, a wall of ice and stone held together by magic and laced with spells that prevent the those belonging to the realm of Ice from passing through it.

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen, but its worth noting that Osha (canon not HBO) says that the Children and the Other Old Races went beyond the Wall to escape the Andals, while Maester Luwin in agreeing actually uses the word fled. I'd rather be inclined therefore to take it, as we've discussed before as delineating the realm of Ice and that the Children and the Other Old Races sought refuge beyond it in that realm.

[Melifeather]

What is the basis of there being a different construction date for the wards vs the physical wall?

I freely admit that my theories stray into crackpot territory. It's based on:

1) the storyboard artist video with Ygritte's back story about how the giants were enslaved and the wildlings forced north of the Wall because they refused to kneel to the son of their previous Lord.

2) in the book, Ygritte shivers and then tells Jon that his is a "bad luck name". Looking through the Stark family tree there is a Lord Jon Stark.

3) Lord Jon Stark is credited with establishing White Harbor and for fighting "sea raiders"

4) it seems like there are instances in the books where history repeats itself and so I think that Ramsay declaring himself to be the Trueborn Lord of Winterfell must be mirroring something from history also.

5) the Wall is repeated referred to as being 8000 years old, which means it's probably not an actual number, but more like saying "a thousand thousand" or some other undefined "long ago".

6) the Children kept drawing a line and the First Men kept forcing their way past it. First the Arm of Dorne, then the Neck. I think the Wall was the final frontier and the Children were done trying to save the First Men from themselves. It was "tough love" so to speak to allow them free will, but the First Men would have to suffer the consequences for their actions.

[Black Crow]

The line "they cannot pass the wall while the men of the night's watch remain true" could be a hint that the wall relies on people to keep it working against the others, I doubt that a treachery would be enough to break it, but spilling the blood of a king of winter on the ice, that's powerful add the treachery side to it and I can see the wall failing, even though the men taught they where saving the watch.

Again I think we may be guilty of reading too much into this. Old Nan speaks of the ghouls and monsters beyond the Wall; presumably comprehending not only the Others/Sidhe but the Children and all the Other Old Races chased out of the civilised parts of Westeros, and was reassuring Bran that he was quite safe because the Wall and the Watch were there to stop them coming back.

[Melifeather]

To paraphrase (I am trying to wrap my head around this), with your original magical Wall, the CotF made a magical 'line in the sand' and said, "Humans don't go over this or you really will need those obsidian daggers we have been giving you!"

Did this magic only Wall do anything, did ward anything from crossing it? My concern is that it seems as if your magic only Wall didn't do anything, because the First Men could/did cross it.

Also, if it was a line of magic/men, why were the CotF still living south of the line?

I have a over-developed left brain, so I over-analyze every detail. I think that the mix of left and right brains make Heresy better. :box:

Basically, yes.

The Children attempted to stop the First Men two other times. First by breaking the Arm of Dorne, and secondly with their Hammer of the waters at the Neck. After that second failure, they agree to a Pact. It is after the Pact that the First Men are first allowed north of the Neck. As part of the pact they were given obsidian and they were warned that White Walkers do stray into the north during the winter. I think they also warned them not to go past the Wall, but because their migration didn't happen over night, and these wild hunts only occur every couple thousand years or so, I think they forgot what they were supposed to be on the watch for.

Establishing the Fist north of the area where they weren't supposed to go was seen by the White Walkers as an act of aggression. This action triggers the Long Night. When the Children help the Last Hero to defeat the Others, there must have been additional magic woven into the Wall to hold back winter itself. This is what caused the weird extended seasons.

[jon rr stark]

The line "they cannot pass the wall while the men of the night's watch remain true" could be a hint that the wall relies on people to keep it working against the others, I doubt that a treachery would be enough to break it, but spilling the blood of a king of winter on the ice, that's powerful add the treachery side to it and I can see the wall failing, even though the men taught they where saving the watch.

Are you saying Jon is the king of winter?

[Iceborn]

yes, he has stark blood also is the best candidate (either targ+stark or plain old north + north he has a better set of genes than most people) . to answer black crow the issue of loyalty is brought up many times "the wall is only as strong as those guarding it"

[The Fallen Phoenix]

Establishing the Fist north of the area where they weren't supposed to go was seen by the White Walkers as an act of aggression. This action triggers the Long Night. When the Children help the Last Hero to defeat the Others, there must have been additional magic woven into the Wall to hold back winter itself. This is what caused the weird extended seasons.

I do like this idea - it squares nicely with the uncertainty whether the Others being the cold, or whether the cold brings the Others. Whether the Others bring Winter or Winter brings the Others, both are locked beyond the Wall so neither can pass.

Someone mentioned the only sleepers we know of are the Others, who have slept since the Last Night (however long ago that actually was). But I'm pretty sure ADAD Bran III shows us sleeping Children in the caves, so I don't think the Others are the only Sleepers the Night Watch Vow might reference. (Going on memory here, so I could be mistaken.)

In fact, why would the Night's Watch need to wake the Others? I don't see how that squares with any conceivable mission we might attach with them. But if the Night's Watch is - even loosely - aligned with the Children of the Forest, whether against the Others or not, it would make a lot of sense for the Watch to have to wake the Children's Sleepers. I would go a step further be say these Sleepers are the Children's Greenseers, but again, I'd have to check the books to be sure. That's half-remembered speculation.

Wild speculation: the Night's Watch could have accepted the role of mediators when they agreed to man the Wall, which would give them a reason to ally with the Others. They'd be just as responsible for keeping the Others beyond the Wall as they'd be for keeping the Men behind the Wall. I don't think there's any evidence to back that up, though. But I also can't shake the feeling that it seems too simple to suggest NW just fights Others.

Dipping briefly into the assassination of Jon Snow at the Wall, and the consequences it might have for the Watch and the Wall, all I can really say with certainty is that Melisandre gets her King's blood sacrifice if he is, in fact, dead. You can argue whether his King's blood is of the Night's Kings, the Stark's Kings [in the North/Winter Kings], or Targaryan Kings, or all three, but it's indisputably King's blood of some kind. What that might mean for the Wall is anyone's guess, though.

[Black Crow]

Someone mentioned the only sleepers we know of are the Others, who have slept since the Last Night

So its popularly believed, but we've actually collected a variety of references to their being around in the winter north of the Wall. Its just south of the Wall that they haven't been seen since the Long Night.

What is perhaps worth emphasising as well that there's no sign of there being great armies of them, either then or since. Just a handful of them or lone individuals at any one time, ranging about being dangerous and raising numbers of wights when they do need extra muscle, which is why we've taken to referring to them as Wild Hunts - the dangerous version of trooping Faeries.

Whether this time around we'll actually see an "invasion" may therefore turn out to be problematic.

[alienarea]

CHARGE!!! :fencing:

The bolded parts are what I agree with, the none-bolded I either don't agree with or am trepidatious about, but I do like them as possible explanations--just not willing to add them to my overall theory

As to the Last Hero and his companions, maybe all 13 of them were considered Heroes, and since all but one of them died, by the end he was the last one left, hence Last Hero.

Also notice how it's our little friend the number 13 at use here for the total number (human wise) of the Last Hero's group, not 12 like it seems on the surface...

The Last Hero plus twelve companions make 13. The Night King was the 13th Lord Commander and ruled for 13 years.

Is the Last Hero the Night King?

In Old Nan's story the Last Hero is chased and Bran interrupts her and says the Children will save him but ...

... mayhaps it was the pale Other woman?

Odd thought: Could Stark be a title like Magnar instead of a name? That would give a different meaning to Stark of Winterfell,

[Black Crow]

In Old Nan's story the Last Hero is chased and Bran interrupts her and says the Children will save him but ...

... mayhaps it was the pale Other woman?

Perhaps they sold him to her :devil: