jon stark I Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Actually thats where i get the idea about being moleculer control thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 This last part has me thinking about Varamyr as well, for he seemingly could also "wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls"... what if he was also a greenseer? :oI was thinking about that - I don't think he was, but he possibly had the potential to become one. Remember his experience when he was about to die? It was basically his soul expanding to the whole surrounding area...reminds me of what BR said about Bran eventually being able to see 'beyond the trees themselves': could he have meant something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I was thinking about that - I don't think he was, but he possibly had the potential to become one. Remember his experience when he was about to die? It was basically his soul expanding to the whole surrounding area...reminds me of what BR said about Bran eventually being able to see 'beyond the trees themselves': could he have meant something like that?When I read the term "beyond the trees" I think of Bran's first vision (possibly when still in a coma) when he travels everywhere in the world with the 3EC to the heart of winter....I think Varamyrs experience was more like the movie "Fallen" where he had a certain amount of time to focus his soul into something or risk truly dying without a host.The two powers seem on different levels, where Bran's ability far outdoes Varamyr's limitation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I agree that the passage does indeed support that Azor Ahai slayed dragons. It's an odd reveal considering that some of the people promoting the story, Melisandre for instance, also worship fire. I think she's trying to take this story away from the true origin, which are the Valyrian slaves. The slaves wanted to kill the dragons, because that was the only true strength the Valyrians had over the enslaved miners. Without dragons the slaves could be freed and Azor Ahai was their savior. That's why Daenerys is Azor Ahai, if she continues freeing slaves, but will the slaves tolerate her dragons?Who's side is Benerro on then? He's gathering slaves to his side and preaching Daenerys to them as their savior. Where does this place Melisandre then? We're told she has her own agenda, so do we then take the next step and assume she's split from Benerro and Moqorro?The Faceless Men started their own religion...one that worships and gives honor only to death. They honor the red god, but only its death aspect. They honor the Seven, but only the Stranger. Melisandre views the Great Other as a death god, but she is in opposition to it, so could we then assume that she would be against the Faceless Men? If so, is she then against the slaves? Following this line of reasoning, is the red god, R'hllor the old religion of the Valyrians?This makes me wonder if Benerro and Moqorro are out to deceive the slaves? By promoting Daenerys as Azor Ahai come again, they want the slaves to view her as their savior from slavery, but is this a trick? Perhaps the real truth is that they want to use her dragons to control them? Is Benerro's true work the beginning stages of a giant payback by the Valyrians to punish the Faceless Men for the Doom?I enjoyed this post of yours, Feather Crystal...I am convinced that the Faceless Men & the CotF are practically interchangeable in beliefs, gods, practices, etc... Their only differences are their origins and their separate histories. I feel that the CotF & the Faceless Men at some point were in communication with each other, learned from each other, and are perhaps still in communication at the present time setting of ASOIAF. Bran's last 2-3 chapters in ADwDs shows far too many similarities between these two groups for them to not be (or have been) in communication with each other.If Mel believes that she is in opposition to the God of Death, then I believe that she is in opposition to the gods of the Faceless Men & the CotF, who I think both worship/honor the Old Gods (the Gods of Death). I'm sure this sounds crack-pot to many, but please review the last 2-3 bran chapters before you dismiss this line of thought...I believe that Martin will draw the CotF & the Faceless Men closer & closer together as his story progresses. This also suggest that perhaps Arya's training has not been so obscure after all... Leaf walked the realms of man for hundreds of years before settling down in the Bran-Cave... How did she do this if she were not capable of utilizing some of the same tricks that the Faceless Men rely upon. Martin goes to great effort to make the reader think of a rya & the Faceless Men when describing Leaf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I enjoyed this post of yours, Feather Crystal...I am convinced that the Faceless Men & the CotF are practically interchangeable in beliefs, gods, practices, etc... Their only differences are their origins and their separate histories. I feel that the CotF & the Faceless Men at some point were in communication with each other, learned from each other, and are perhaps still in communication at the present time setting of ASOIAF. Bran's last 2-3 chapters in ADwDs shows far too many similarities between these two groups for them to not be (or have been) in communication with each other.If Mel believes that she is in opposition to the God of Death, then I believe that she is in opposition to the gods of the Faceless Men & the CotF, who I think both worship/honor the Old Gods (the Gods of Death). I'm sure this sounds crack-pot to many, but please review the last 2-3 bran chapters before you dismiss this line of thought...I believe that Martin will draw the CotF & the Faceless Men closer & closer together as his story progresses.This also suggest that perhaps Arya's training has not been so obscure after all... Leaf walked the realms of man for hundreds of years before settling down in the Bran-Cave... How did she do this if she were not capable of utilizing some of the same tricks that the Faceless Men rely upon. Martin goes to great effort to make the reader think of a rya & the Faceless Men when describing Leaf...Thank you for your kind words, addicted to snow...I do think we're on to something in thinking Melisandre would be against the death god He of Many Faces...but it's not quite right just yet. I've just reread Tyryan's comment and realize that I'm the one that misunderstood what he said. He stated that the Valyrians couldn't have worshipped the same religion as Melisandre, because she wouldn't tolerate any additional gods. And, since the Targaryens named their dragons after Valyrian gods (plural) therefore it cannot be the same religion. Unless we were to learn that the fire-religion is multi-faceted or includes lesser demi-gods. But, on the surface it does seem logical that R'hllor would be the religion of people with fire breathing dragons.While I recognize some parallel similarities between the Children and the Faceless Men, I wouldn't go so far as to agree that they're interchangeable. The Children worship nature while the Faceless Men worship death. Wouldn't this be near opposite? The Faceless Men are more like skinchangers only they're not true wargs...rather they learned how to flay dead bodies, wear the human skins, and use the remaining spirit to disguise their identity. It's almost like they're related to the skin-flaying Boltons, or practicers of the same dark magic that maester Qyburn has done to Robert Strong.I just had an odd thought...perhaps it were the Faceless Men that "warged" the dragons that landed at Hardhome? Could it be they learned the art of warging or a near copy of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I enjoyed this post of yours, Feather Crystal...I am convinced that the Faceless Men & the CotF are practically interchangeable in beliefs, gods, practices, etc... Their only differences are their origins and their separate histories. I feel that the CotF & the Faceless Men at some point were in communication with each other, learned from each other, and are perhaps still in communication at the present time setting of ASOIAF. Bran's last 2-3 chapters in ADwDs shows far too many similarities between these two groups for them to not be (or have been) in communication with each other.If Mel believes that she is in opposition to the God of Death, then I believe that she is in opposition to the gods of the Faceless Men & the CotF, who I think both worship/honor the Old Gods (the Gods of Death). I'm sure this sounds crack-pot to many, but please review the last 2-3 bran chapters before you dismiss this line of thought...I believe that Martin will draw the CotF & the Faceless Men closer & closer together as his story progresses.This also suggest that perhaps Arya's training has not been so obscure after all... Leaf walked the realms of man for hundreds of years before settling down in the Bran-Cave... How did she do this if she were not capable of utilizing some of the same tricks that the Faceless Men rely upon. Martin goes to great effort to make the reader think of a rya & the Faceless Men when describing Leaf...Thank you for your kind words, addicted to snow...I do think we're on to something in thinking Melisandre would be against the death god He of Many Faces...but it's not quite right just yet. I've just reread Tyryan's comment and realize that I'm the one that misunderstood what he said. He stated that the Valyrians couldn't have worshipped the same religion as Melisandre, because she wouldn't tolerate any additional gods. And, since the Targaryens named their dragons after Valyrian gods (plural) therefore it cannot be the same religion. Unless we were to learn that the fire-religion is multi-faceted or includes lesser demi-gods. But, on the surface it does seem logical that R'hllor would be the religion of people with fire breathing dragons.While I recognize some parallel similarities between the Children and the Faceless Men, I wouldn't go so far as to agree that they're interchangeable. The Children worship nature while the Faceless Men worship death. Wouldn't this be near opposite? The Faceless Men are more like skinchangers only they're not true wargs...rather they learned how to flay dead bodies, wear the human skins, and use the remaining spirit to disguise their identity. It's almost like they're related to the skin-flaying Boltons, or practicers of the same dark magic that maester Qyburn has done to Robert Strong.I just had an odd thought...perhaps it were the Faceless Men that "warged" the dragons that landed at Hardhome? Could it be they learned the art of warging or a near copy of it?I think that it is that they are similar, but slightly different. They way I see it, they are both worshipers of balance. The difference lies in how that worship i manifested: the Children worship the balance in and of itself, whereas the Faceless Men worship the main instrument of balance: death. The reason for death being the instrument of balance is simple: if you have an entity that skews the balance towards one side or the other, the easiest way to regain the previous balance is to outright remove the skewing entity. And this is where Black Crow's theory about "the Wall must come down" fits in: if, as he, myself, and others speculate, the Wall is at least a contributing factor to the wackiness of the seasons (and therefore the unbalance of the world), then it must be "killed" in order for balance to be restored.This also ties into why the White Walkers are not necessarily evil--they are a part of the cycle of balance. In order to have balance, you need the cycle of Life, Decay, Death, and Rejuvenation (Summer, Autumn, Winter, Spring)... and this has lead me to an interesting thought: what if the main problem of the unbalance in the seasons is not that there are long Summers and long Winters, but that there are not correspondingly long Autumn/Springs, there is not an equal Decay/Rejuvenation cycle to compliment the Life/Death cycle, there is too much Ice and Fire and not enough Earth and Water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 So what Tyryan is essentially saying ...More Mudmen and Krakens?I kid,But that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it... The Winters and Summers being Long may not be the culprit, but the fact the Autumns and Springs are not equal to them is what is causing the imbalance. Interesting sidepoint, and pending further discussion, I am totally with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think the Others are a very real threat that need Last Hero reborn. I now view Melisandre as having identified Jon as being Last Hero reborn and she wants to prevent him from defeating the Others so that she might help the rest of the R'hllorists in their quest to restore the Valyrian Empire. . . . wait, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 So what Tyryan is essentially saying ...More Mudmen and Krakens?I kid,But that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it... The Winters and Summers being Long may not be the culprit, but the fact the Autumns and Springs are not equal to them is what is causing the imbalance. Interesting sidepoint, and pending further discussion, I am totally with it.All kidding aside, that might actually be what's needed... more crazy water prophets and tree people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think Melisandre plotted Jon's stabbing. The Others could be a useful tool in helping to restore the Valyrian empire. After they've destoyed much of Westeros, the dragons can be brought in to clean things up.I'm guessing that Moqorro will come to Daenerys and explain her true place as the Queen of the restored Valyrian Empire. The question then is, will she be tempted?I'm curious where you get this idea that the R'Hllorists want to restore the Valyrian Empire. Benerro is actively trying to incite a riot against the last surviving Valyrians and those Valyrians are actively trying to hire sellswords to kill Benerro.ETA : Not to mention that the Valyrian Empire was built on mass slavery and the main reason the R'Hllorists are holding up Dany as AA and the goal the want her to accomplish is to end the slave trade and destroy the last survivers of the Valyrian Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Exactly, I fear Feather has completely misunderstood what I was suggesting.Azor Ahai: the dragonslayer, promised 5,000 years ago to save the world from the darkness of the Valyrian empire.The Prince that was Promised: Targaryan prince born to raise dragons and restore the Valyrian empireMaster Benero: High Priest of the Red Temple, hailing Dany as Azor Ahai and her dragons as the instrument to destroy the last elements of the empire - we have the dragons now (remember said dragons were born out east)Maester Aemon: Targaryen prince, recognising Dany as the Prince that was Promised and anxious to guide her to her true destiny - and prevent her being hijacked or nobbled by the other side, ie; Benero and the Red LotMel: likely to muck things up through wilful stupidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Hamster Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 New tangent:If by sacrificing his sons Craster is at least neutral with the Others why don't other wildling families do the same thing? Or is it something special about Craster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 New tangent:If by sacrificing his sons Craster is at least neutral with the Others why don't other wildling families do the same thing? Or is it something special about Craster?Its reckoned to be in the blood. The theory is that the heavy curse Craster bears is that there's something special about his sons, Sidhe blood perhaps, which is why they're collected early - and why they come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Reverting to my earlier post, there may be a certain irony in this interpretation - Jon may indeed be Azor Ahai, not the champion of fire leading the fight against the Others, but Jon the dragonslayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Hamster Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Its reckoned to be in the blood. The theory is that the heavy curse Craster bears is that there's something special about his sons, Sidhe blood perhaps, which is why they're collected early - and why they come back.Is it not a bit weird that the curse means he survives against the Sidhe where as everyone else dies of cold. It's not such a bad curse it appears in the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Not really because you have to put it in context. Up until now for the majority of Wildlings its just the occasional hazard of white shadows in the woods in winter, snaffling the odd lonely traveller perhaps but not much more than that, while Craster is giving up his sons all of the time. Now granted with a long Winter coming and the liklihood of the Others/Sidhe roaming unchecked, he reckons he can afford to sit tight, but that's just him and his wives and daughters. Ultimate the curse does require him to give up his sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannister Hamster Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Not really because you have to put it in context. Up until now for the majority of Wildlings its just the occasional hazard of white shadows in the woods in winter, snaffling the odd lonely traveller perhaps but not much more than that, while Craster is giving up his sons all of the time. Now granted with a long Winter coming and the liklihood of the Others/Sidhe roaming unchecked, he reckons he can afford to sit tight, but that's just him and his wives and daughters. Ultimate the curse does require him to give up his sons.Ok, next question - why haven't we found anyone who worships the Sidhe? The Old Gods/COTF get some love, R'hallor has his, the faceless men have theirs - but there's no body worshipping the Sidhe. If they are some natural force that we think they are, then it would stand to reason that more people than Craster pray to them - even if it's akin to Satanists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 The Sidhe aren't gods, they're another race....actually, it may be more accurate to say they're another form of life.Back to the Azor Ahai, Prince that was Promised, the R'hllorists and Faceless Men. Yes, I did misunderstand Black Crow, but there is something there. The R'hllorists keep bringing up Azor Ahai, and the Targaryens have their Prince that was Promised. At first glance, that looks like they would oppose each other. And Benerro is preaching to the slaves. However, it does bother me that Melisandre is so against death that she views the Others as the impending enemy. And, if she's opposed to death, then she is also against the death god of the Faceless Men.I have to leave for work shortly, so I cannot write more, but this is an interesting puzzle to try to sort out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Ok, next question - why haven't we found anyone who worships the Sidhe? The Old Gods/COTF get some love, R'hallor has his, the faceless men have theirs - but there's no body worshipping the Sidhe. If they are some natural force that we think they are, then it would stand to reason that more people than Craster pray to them - even if it's akin to Satanists.Well Others aren't like any other god we have seen they don't grant any think but take everything.Craster prays to them because he is really cursed even wildlings hate his guts.What they want from Craster is his sons maybe thats like a deal but he gives every son to them.Think about it if all wildlings gave their sons to them then who will make new sons?Eventually when all men die then Others will kill the women and the children anyway so there is no reason for them to pray.IIRC wildlings worship Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 "For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly."What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself."The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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