EmmaoftheCanals Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Yeah, I though about it being Benjen transformed/changed into White Walker, but it didn't seem to make a lot of sense. The black, cold hands somehow reminded me of another description of a white walker somewhere? Maybe the one that got Sam his nickname? I can't be sure, as I said, all the books are just one big soup in my head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runaway Penguin Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I think the Coldhands = Night's King hypothesis is correct. And if he was the guy whose throat was slit on WeirNet, he may have muffled face both to hide the scar and to prevent Bran from recognizing him later.He may be Benjen, but the "they killed him long ago" seems to refer to more than a year or so since Benjen is missing. I think we will see Benjen yet... Dead or alive, and I guess he was the guy who provided dragonglass to the Watch (and the broken horn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I wonder of the Freehold of Valyria in general knew something the Targs didn't,as does Tyrion;"The Freehold's grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone,but never to the mainland of Westeros.Odd,that.Dragonstone is no more than a rock.The wealth was west,but they had dragons.Surely they knew that it was there." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaoftheCanals Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I forgot about the horn! At the time I thought they had unwittingly found the horn of Joramun... And that it's not broken, but produces too high/low frequency to be perceived by humans. That or only a chosen one could blow it (seems less likely). Then the wildlings turned up with a horn which was of "Joramun", turned out not to be and now I'm not sure anymore... Is there a leading theory on the horn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaoftheCanals Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I think the Coldhands = Night's King hypothesis is correct.Ah! That was the description that reminded me of Coldhands, the Night Kings Queen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 So what Tyryan is essentially saying ...More Mudmen and Krakens?I like this quite a lot, and it also ties in with the prophesy/dream that 'the salt water will wash over all of Westeros' and so a balance will be achieved. Of course, the Mudmen are waiting in the wings with a 50000 strong army ready to nab a bit of land aswell :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 There might not be one. Air is suspiciously missing from the oath of Reeds.“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. “We swear it by ice and fire.”While I like Wolfmaid's idea in principle I think that rather than four it has to come back to the six of Reeds' oath, which doesn't sound as though its peculiar to the Crannogmen, but something older and deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 I like this quite a lot, and it also ties in with the prophesy/dream that 'the salt water will wash over all of Westeros' and so a balance will be achieved. Of course, the Mudmen are waiting in the wings with a 50000 strong army ready to nab a bit of land aswell :)Which prophesy was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Welcome to the forum. Asking is easy, getting a sensible answer rather less so...Very briefly, nobody can figure Coldhands out. The fact he keeps his face muffled up suggests Bran may recognise him otherwise and there's a school of thought that he may be Benjen Stark. On the whole its felt the evidence is against this (if you search you ought to find multiple threads discussing it) but that he may be some older Stark, perhaps even the Nights King.As to Bran, like Jon he belongs to the Old Gods and therefore is very definitely on the other side so far as Mel is concerned.GRRM has stated Coldhands is not Benjen-from a SSM. In all likelhood its the nights king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandar Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Considering this is heresy and mostly u guys talk here about Jon SNOW i think this thread will help u somehow...i allready put it somewhere....I have few theory's regarding Jon Snow....On which i believe Jon is rightful king of Westeros (because R+L=J theory)...GRRM has quoted many times that ASOIAF will finish much like Tolkien finished his book Lord of the rings(LOTR)....And in LOTR's end...Gondor after 3500 years had rightful king Aragon(king of the humans in middle earth)...In ASOIAF line of the kings was broken (as well as in LOTR) after usurper's war ended..And as GRRM stated he wants to finish his book like Tolkien....and as i said i believe Jon Snow is rightful king of Rhoynar's,Andals and the First man(all tho I don't believe he'll be king of Rhoynar's considering that he's not Elia's son but Lyanna's son and will probably be blamed for his mother's actions) .....1)There has to be some way to relieve Jon Snow from his oath to NW...If he somehow get's out from his NW oath(because of the stabbing incident) he'll still be looked as an oath breaker in the eyes of the noble houses as well as in the eyes of common people in Westeros wich means even if he's Rhaegar's son and a threw hair it won't matter he he will be traitor and never be able to sit on Iron Throne...There has to be some way....some acceptable solution for his oath problem...a) Wall falls down so i guess no1 cares for NW oath if there is no NW....which is kinda bummer...considering Jon was Lord Commander when wall falls...I guess it wouldn't look to good in the eyes of people that way....not good at all....B) I think best way to relieve Jon from his oath Is via Robb Stark's will...that's only acceptable way i can think of...I think before Ned Stark went south he told all his secrets,information's all his knowledge to his FIRST born son.....He knew he might not come back...and for that reason he also may told Robb about Jon's true past...who are really his parents...A believe that the Robb Stark will look something like this...These being the words of Robert son of Edarad from the house Stark king of the north,lord of Winterfall....My grandfather Rickard Stark had four children..Brandon(dyed whitout hair,Edarad(naming his legitimate children,benjan presumable dead and daughter Lyanna)Considering my brothers are dead and i don't have a hair i need a new hair a Stark ...Bla bla bla....I exclude my sister Sansa rights to inhearid Wnterfell...bla bla bla same goes for Arya cause fear of another family taking Winterfall via his sisters...which would mean death of 12k years old family...Therefour i need a new hair....considering that Brandon,Edard and Benjan are dead whit out living hairs Winterfall would go to Lyanna Stark and her's children....I Robert Stark am naming as my hear my "brother/cousin" prince of Tower of Joy/Tower of Sorrow...Lyanna's Stark son Jon Snow of Winterfell...to rule upon my death as a STARK....KIng of the north...king of the winter.....king of the first man.....bla bla bla bla bla bla.....I do believe Robb figured some way to relese Jon from his oath....And this is probably moust sattisfaing way to publicly anaunce that Jon Snow is Rheagar's son which would be public knowledge in all seven kingdoms....which would know every noble house...and all common people in Westeros...VIA ROBB STARK'S WILL....2) All tho one of moust saddest moments for me was when ICE(Stark's sword) was melted....i believe it to be Lightbringer(when is forged again by missing rengards Oathbreaker and Widow's vail) a sword that Jon Targaryan will weald....he will be hot because he took the life of his owner(Ned Stark)...and will bright...via forging a really old valerian steel...which happend whit oathbreaker....3) Considering Jon Snow stabbing i don't believe he's dead...he will probably survive just to be BURNED ALIVE by Bouen Marsh and his man when they find out that Stannis is not dead because of the fear of retribution....while burning Ghoust will probably jump to Jon's body....he will burn so Jon can live....And when fire is out and the smoke is gone....Jon will rise....he will be light headed not knowing what's going on(part oh his soul is dead...goust is dead)...Not knowing what's happening every1 he see is kneeling he's black brothers,willdings,queens man....Sudenly he hears a soud so beautiful and so horrifying behaind him...he is afraid to look back....white tail....white snake is standing beside him...white snake whit wings....he's golden eyes looking at him...he knew he's name RHEAGAL!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Nah, he's going to be King of Winter - something very different.Speaking of which, I had an odd thought while posting something on the Mormont Warg thread:When that idiot Greatjon Umber starts bellowing about Robb Stark being King in the North and all the other silly fools join in the chorus, Maege Mormont doesn't. Instead, and alone amongst the throng, she (rather hopefully) hails him as the King of Winter. He isn't of course and proves it by getting himself killed, but why did Mormont use that archaic title and is there a connection with her brother's raven/crow continually hailing Jon Snow as King (of Winter?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Which prophesy was that?Was there not something that i think Euron said, or some hanger on or someone in that general area said that they saw salt water washing over Westeros? It was in Feast or ADWD but I can't remember where or by who....apologies.The fact that I haven't seen it mentioned may tell me that i'm somehow making it up and no, I'm not thinking of the Bran, Winterfell dream. I'm in work aswell so don't have access to the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Flint Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I forgot about the horn! At the time I thought they had unwittingly found the horn of Joramun... And that it's not broken, but produces too high/low frequency to be perceived by humans. That or only a chosen one could blow it (seems less likely). Then the wildlings turned up with a horn which was of "Joramun", turned out not to be and now I'm not sure anymore... Is there a leading theory on the horn? Hi all, love this thread! I'm too new to comment on theory's but I remember Jon Snow digging out the mud from it and blowing the horn. He assumed it was broken and gave it to Sam. But the WW are pretty silent and Ghost is silent too, so it feels as though a silent horn might not be that unusual north of the Wall. Could Jon have inadvertently summoned the WW when he blew it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I'm pretty sure we do know that there was blood sacrifice to the trees, the old gods. This is not that different than Craster leaving his sons to the cold gods.I don't see any difference in the logic between worshipping the Sidhe and the Weirwood - both non-human life forms.What I'm trying to get at is that it's very strange that we haven't seen anyone else worshipping the Sidhe. Every wildling is afraid of them apart from Craster - and Craster as part of his religion gives his sons up. Craster has enough food set by for his family for years of winter - we know he has the stores set by, so I guess he expects to survive.So either he's cursed by something to have to give up his children to the Sidhe but in turn be saved from them - which doesn't sound that logical.So to me it looks like we have a religion with one remaining practicioner and a nation of wildlings who decided to overwhelmingly worship the trees instead. Have we seen in the book (not flashbacks) of trees being given blood sacrifice still?Maybe it's too complicated and I'm reading into something that isn't there and shouldn't be read into but maybe there is a clue to be gleaned from the separation between Craster's worship and the rest of the wildlings.So far, three examples of possible blood sacrifice (well, two so far and a third to come): First is, as discussed either last Heresy or the one before, the fact that Luwin is lying against the Heartree when he asks Osha to take his life, and the fact that his blood is therefore spilled at a weirwood could be a sacrifice (and a self sacrifice at that, which in literature is typical the most powerful type of all). The second is from the Theon sample chapter, where by the end it seems as if Theon will be brought before the village's heartree and executed, once again possibly being a sacrifice to the tree. The third one is from Whitetree (or a similar wildling village) where they find the burnt bones of a baby/child within the mouth of the weirwood; since the wood inside the mouth-hole is also described as being charred, it stands to reason that the body was burnt right there inside the weirwood mouth. What we don't know is if the child was burnt after death (which is implied and reasonably assumed by the Watchmen and us readers) or if the child was burned alive; either way, could be seen as a sacrifice.While I like Wolfmaid's idea in principle I think that rather than four it has to come back to the six of Reeds' oath, which doesn't sound as though its peculiar to the Crannogmen, but something older and deeper. :agree: GRRM has stated Coldhands is not Benjen-from a SSM. In all likelhood its the nights king.That or it's just some unlucky, inconsequential dude who's identity we will never learn (or it is a consequential dude who's identity we will never learn--and knowing Martin, this one is likely going to be the case) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 When that idiot Greatjon Umber starts bellowing about Robb Stark being King in the North and all the other silly fools join in the chorus, Maege Mormont doesn't. Instead, and alone amongst the throng, she (rather hopefully) hails him as the King of Winter. He isn't of course and proves it by getting himself killed, but why did Mormont use that archaic title and is there a connection with her brother's raven/crow continually hailing Jon Snow as King (of Winter?)Isn't this the whole reason we came up with the theory of Kings of Winter ruling over all the North (both sides of the Wall) pre-Night's King, Night's King being last King of Winter, and all that good stuff so many Heresies ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Why would the Bears remember and the Starks forget though?I like it though and seems very interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 On Craster "Worshipping" the White Walkers. Whats does this mean? What we know from the Books is that he Sacrifices his Sons & Sheep to them. I'm pretty sure that + a few whispered prayers constitutes worship in a medieval fantasy setting. Doesn't mean they are gods or that Craster has got it right - it's simply that in his life experience of living in a remote log cabin with nothing but his Children / Wives as company & the occasional visit from a Crow or a Wildling they are the closest thing to gods he meets.I'm afraid I don't prescribe to Craster Sons = Changeling White Walker Theory as it fails to address what I think are some Basics. 1 - White Walkers have been around for 8000 years but Craster for only 50 so something came first and for a very long time before Craster got involved. 2 - Where do the baby humans go & how do they change into Adult White walkers without dying? White walkers bring with them a terrible cold which would surely kill an infant human. I realise we are dealing with a fantasy world thatt has magic & dragons but the practicalities of A WW rocking up to Crasters, taking a baby and then somehow rearing them into a full blown WW seems a stretch.I prefer a much more mundane interpretation to all of this. Craster offers his Sons as a way to remove competition to his absolute authority - he is running a cult. The WW "Feed" on the babies & Sheep (Old Nan's tales about drinking warm blood - we have yet to see a WW sheep so its pretty clear they at least are not changelings). Crasters interpretation of "Being a godly man" and this protecting him from "the cold golds" is simply that as a clearly intellignet lifeform the WW are not biting the hand that feeds them. So when they are doing whatever it is that takes them as far south as Craster from the lands of always winter they know that Crasters is a guaranteed source of food and a much easier one than A) hunting down wildlings in a huge & sparesly populated area or B ) attacking the wall to snaffle some NW members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Hi all, love this thread! I'm too new to comment on theory's but I remember Jon Snow digging out the mud from it and blowing the horn. He assumed it was broken and gave it to Sam. But the WW are pretty silent and Ghost is silent too, so it feels as though a silent horn might not be that unusual north of the Wall. Could Jon have inadvertently summoned the WW when he blew it?I always thought the the horn was kind of split in two a la the Horn of Gondor after Boromir gets killed, but maybe I'm remembering wrong/being too influenced by the TV show... either way I do believe that that is the Horn of Joruman (and if you may recall, Sam still has it in his possession at the Citadel--Martin made sure to explicitly point out that that was one of the items still in Sam's possession when he finally arrived there)Also: hehehehe Daenerys Flint.... hehehehehe great play on words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Why would the Bears remember and the Starks forget though?I like it though and seems very interesting...There's just something very fishy (well, beary, but fishy's the word that works) about the Mormonts (and there has to be some reason why they are seemingly EVERYWHERE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runaway Penguin Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Because Bears had more contact with the Wildlings? (incl. certain Father of Hosts ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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