Runaway Penguin Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Tormund. It's one of his titles IIRC, and didn't he have an affair with a she-bear?Yes, and we don't know if it is real or figurative ;) After all the Mormont girls seem to be able to beat someone up pretty well without need to warg a bear ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 What irritates me is that the Starks forgot, there doesn't seem to be much indication Ned knew much of the magical forces, he actually seems to be blind to them. Although he new plenty about how 'Winter is Coming.' Was he the final nail in the coffin of the Starks forgetting their true purpose or has winter been coming for some time...It has been suggested that Ned (and consequently Jon) knows nothing because both his father and elder brother, who ought to have known something, were cut off abruptly like - and it probably didn't help that Ned was fostered out on Jon Arryn at the time. All of which might point to the knowledge being lost rather than carelessly forgotten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Flint Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I always thought the the horn was kind of split in two a la the Horn of Gondor after Boromir gets killed, but maybe I'm remembering wrong/being too influenced by the TV show... either way I do believe that that is the Horn of Joruman (and if you may recall, Sam still has it in his possession at the Citadel--Martin made sure to explicitly point out that that was one of the items still in Sam's possession when he finally arrived there)Also: hehehehe Daenerys Flint.... hehehehehe great play on wordsHehe :) Thanks. I thought it was like a hairline crack in the horn, but I could easily be wrong. Bit of an aside: Do you have any theories about 'beastlings'? They almost need a separate class of their own e.g. wights, white walkers, beastlings, men etc.. seems important but I just don't get how it all works. Is it the women that have to be stolen and bred with or can the men get the job done? it's all a bit seedy :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 I assume beastlings are the not quite human races like Hornfoots and perhaps the giants and maybe some of the other oddities rallied by Mance - unless of course they're wargs. I'm sure its been mentioned somerwhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 It has been suggested that Ned (and consequently Jon) knows nothing because both his father and elder brother, who ought to have known something, were cut off abruptly like - and it probably didn't help that Ned was fostered out on Jon Arryn at the time. All of which might point to the knowledge being lost rather than carelessly forgottenIt's kind of interesting that Catelyn is the one warning Ned about the strange things in the north when she gets a letter from the King in her first chapter. Ned kind of shrugs it off like her fears are silly. So he's aware of it, but hearing old ghost stories is one thing.Having your father tell you its true, and that your family is at the core of it would be quite a different thing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Tormund. It's one of his titles IIRC, and didn't he have an affair with a she-bear?My pet theory is that when Maege Mormont shows up at the wall with a particular will, and see's Tormund, that shit hits the fan :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 On the contra, even in seeing The Reed Oath now i can identify the ritual; he still called the quaters "by Earth and water" in the middle of that- (spirit center) we have instruments of man for war( bronze and iron) two metals that are not found naturally in nature Iron( in its ore) and bronze( copper and tin) these have to be altered by human hands to be used- their contribution/or the elements they made that defines them- (see the5 ages of man Greek creation story).Then he closed the invocation with ice and fire. I would characterize ice to wind in this story especially when the Starks put them together so much( icy winds,the cold winds are blowing) etc.Fair enough, that helps make sense of it. We'd already identified the Children as the Earth and the Krakens as Water, Bronze for the First Men and Iron for the Andals, and Ice and Fire are equally obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 My pet theory is that when Maege Mormont shows up at the wall with a particular will, and see's Tormund, that shit hits the fan :)Either that or you can't get any sense out of them for about a week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Either that or you can't get any sense out of them for about a week...Yeah, she is definetly going to 'Mormount' him.....;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Father of Hosts? Pray tell? (not Craster king of winter and sons no?)One of Tormund's names is Father of Hosts; he has that story about how he once slept with a bear, and Alysane Mormont has her story about how her children were fathered by a bearIt's a rather boring explanation but cultures living on islands can be quite isolated and keep more to older traditions. We can see this on the Iron Isles - they're pretty isolated and keep to their old beliefs. Maybe that's the case with Mormonts on their island. The isolation preserves the history/mythology better?Perhaps they're the King's remembrancers :cool4:On a thread about the Mormonts I posted something about this that I'll repeat here:We know that there are other Stark splinter families besides the Karstarks and Greystarks... what if one of those families is the Mormonts? It would make since for the King Stark to bequeath the recently (re)conquered Bear Island to a close relative before anyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Time has been eroding the memory of the true purpose of the Starks and the Wall.An earlier Stark would not have killed Lady,for any reason.The Watch was a vague shadow of it's former purpose at the start of the novels,further undermined by the assassination of Jeor Mormont (just as he was putting the pieces together).Unless, as I suspect, it was Lady's death that paid for Bran's "rebirth" (waking from the coma) and an earlier Stark would have means of knowing that a life would need to be paid for his son to return... I feel that in this one case an earlier Stark would have sacrificed the direwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 It's kind of interesting that Catelyn is the one warning Ned about the strange things in the north when she gets a letter from the King in her first chapter. Ned kind of shrugs it off like her fears are silly. So he's aware of it, but hearing old ghost stories is one thing.Having your father tell you its true, and that your family is at the core of it would be quite a different thing,He also shrugs off Gared's "ramblings" about White Walkers as nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 My pet theory is that when Maege Mormont shows up at the wall with a particular will, and see's Tormund, that shit hits the fan :)Maege: You...Tormund: O shit, it's you! No, you're not getting the rest of my member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 On the contra, even in seeing The Reed Oath now i can identify the ritual; he still called the quaters "by Earth and water" in the middle of that- (spirit center) we have instruments of man for war( bronze and iron) two metals that are not found naturally in nature Iron( in its ore) and bronze( copper and tin) these have to be altered by human hands to be used- their contribution/or the elements they made that defines them- (see the5 ages of man Greek creation story).Then he closed the invocation with ice and fire. I would characterize ice to wind in this story especially when the Starks put them together so much( icy winds,the cold winds are blowing) etc.Fair enough, that helps make sense of it. We'd already identified the Children as the Earth and the Krakens as Water, Bronze for the First Men and Iron for the Andals, and Ice and Fire are equally obvious.Equating Ice as his version of Air makes since, especially if our theories about the mists are correct (ie that the mists are the White Walkers in a non-solid state)... I've been trying for awhile to fit Air in with the Water-Earth-Fire, and now we've finally been able to... although it does seem like Martin has switched up the associated directions a bit: Water-West, Fire-South, Earth-East? Air-North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Yeah, as I said it makes sense, but moving on from there where does the balance lie, or rather given that the balance is apparently upset, how is it to be restored?This is the Song of Ice and Fire, and Ice and Fire are explicitly linked at the end of the oath. Although we don't know which is which, one of the Reeds swears by earth and water, and one by bronze and iron, before both swear by Ice and Fire in chorus which would suggest a certain primacy. Is it therefore Ice and Fire who are out of balance as we've assumed all along, or is it Ice and Fire who together will bring the other elements into balance.Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Unless, as I suspect, it was Lady's death that paid for Bran's "rebirth" (waking from the coma) and an earlier Stark would have means of knowing that a life would need to be paid for his son to return... I feel that in this one case an earlier Stark would have sacrificed the direwolfHmm,not so sure.When Cat tells Ned about Summer killing Bran's would be assassin,he feels a mixture of guilt and fear."If the old gods had sent these wolves,what folly had he done?"Besides Bran was alive and the 3EC took care of Bran's revival.I think the show links Lady's killing to Bran's awakening where the books don't ,so much.But I think we can agree on an increasing amnesia afflicting the Starks over the ages.I think Jojen's line to Bran,-"Truths the First Men knew,forgotten now in Winterfell....." could be interpreted that the secrets are still in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Fair enough, that helps make sense of it. We'd already identified the Children as the Earth and the Krakens as Water, Bronze for the First Men and Iron for the Andals, and Ice and Fire are equally obvious.Not to me. 'Bronze and iron' are what the ancient crown of Kings of Winter was made of. "Bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold." Also,at this point, I see no reason to pair the Krakens with the Children - their relevance to Westeros and to the Starks in particular is just not comparable. However the Children are closely connected to 'water', even though they identify themselves with 'earth'. So, to me, it makes more sense to assume that 'earth and water' and 'bronze and iron' are aspects of the Children and the First Men respectively. 'Ice anf dire' is not so obvious, though - ice is represented by the Others and fire by...dragons? fire-transformed superhuman weirdos? (like Mel/Moqorro)...but then I have trouble seeing what the encompassing category might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Equating Ice as his version of Air makes since, especially if our theories about the mists are correct (ie that the mists are the White Walkers in a non-solid state)... I've been trying for awhile to fit Air in with the Water-Earth-Fire, and now we've finally been able to... although it does seem like Martin has switched up the associated directions a bit: Water-West, Fire-South, Earth-East? Air-North? I agree with that; the directions are a bit different, but having gone to many open ceremonies with different people it is clear that certain traditions would call the direction that they find significant to them; so maybe there is something to why he changed certain quarters.Traditionally East would be called first,but that has gone out the window as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Not to me. 'Bronze and iron' are what the ancient crown of Kings of Winter was made of. "Bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold." Also,at this point, I see no reason to pair the Krakens with the Children - their relevance to Westeros and to the Starks in particular is just not comparable. However the Children are closely connected to 'water', even though they identify themselves with 'earth'. So, to me, it makes more sense to assume that 'earth and water' and 'bronze and iron' are aspects of the Children and the First Men respectively. 'Ice anf dire' is not so obvious, though - ice is represented by the Others and fire by...dragons? fire-transformed superhuman weirdos? (like Mel/Moqorro)...but then I have trouble seeing what the encompassing category might be.I suppose water could be the Crannogmen rather than the Krakens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Yeah, as I said it makes sense, but moving on from there where does the balance lie, or rather given that the balance is apparently upset, how is it to be restored?This is the Song of Ice and Fire, and Ice and Fire are explicitly linked at the end of the oath. Although we don't know which is which, one of the Reeds swears by earth and water, and one by bronze and iron, before both swear by Ice and Fire in chorus which would suggest a certain primacy. Is it therefore Ice and Fire who are out of balance as we've assumed all along, or is it Ice and Fire who together will bring the other elements into balance.Any suggestions?It may be as elemental as fire and ice being made of the same thing,the difference is the forces that bind the elements together.Ice(water) is made of hydrogen and oxygen,two of the most combustible elements known.Fire needs either of these to occur.If we can translate that science into fantasy language,we might be getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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