Heresy 36

[nanother]

I suppose water could be the Crannogmen rather than the Krakens

That certainly makes much more sense...still, I'm not convinced :unsure:

[nanother]

It may be as elemental as fire and ice being made of the same thing,the difference is the forces that bind the elements together.Ice(water) is made of hydrogen and oxygen,two of the most combustible elements known.Fire needs either of these to occur.

If we can translate that science into fantasy language,we might be getting there.

I like that, it would help with my theory as well...

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah, as I said it makes sense, but moving on from there where does the balance lie, or rather given that the balance is apparently upset, how is it to be restored?

This is the Song of Ice and Fire, and Ice and Fire are explicitly linked at the end of the oath. Although we don't know which is which, one of the Reeds swears by earth and water, and one by bronze and iron, before both swear by Ice and Fire in chorus which would suggest a certain primacy. Is it therefore Ice and Fire who are out of balance as we've assumed all along, or is it Ice and Fire who together will bring the other elements into balance.

Any suggestions?

I think your latter point is spot on,Fire and Ice are bugging big time; the problem seems to centered around them. However,at the heart of this imbalance at lease from where i sit seems to be (spirit center) be it the wall or Man himself. This goes back to our earlier assertion that the wall must come down it is definitely a hindrance, but i see it as a lesser hindrance to man.The perfect union would be man in unison with the gods. Is there any proof to show that a pact between fire and ice was forged and or broken? If so this pact happen in the presence of weirwoods as witnesses?

[nanother]

Unless, as I suspect, it was Lady's death that paid for Bran's "rebirth" (waking from the coma) and an earlier Stark would have means of knowing that a life would need to be paid for his son to return... I feel that in this one case an earlier Stark would have sacrificed the direwolf

I don't know...that would somehow take away the power of Bran's choice. And I don't think his daughter's wolf for his son's life would be the sacrifice to make, in any case...can't coherently explain why, though.

[wolfmaid7]

I suppose water could be the Crannogmen rather than the Krakens

It could be the Crannogmen they seem to have an intimate knowledge of the arcane. And i agree with BC that oath spoken of my the Reeds didn't just fall off their lips that spoke of something older.

[nanother]

Well, once ice and fire are done with each other, what remains is earth and water :P

[wolfmaid7]

Not to me. 'Bronze and iron' are what the ancient crown of Kings of Winter was made of. "Bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold." Also,at this point, I see no reason to pair the Krakens with the Children - their relevance to Westeros and to the Starks in particular is just not comparable. However the Children are closely connected to 'water', even though they identify themselves with 'earth'. So, to me, it makes more sense to assume that 'earth and water' and 'bronze and iron' are aspects of the Children and the First Men respectively. 'Ice anf dire' is not so obvious, though - ice is represented by the Others and fire by...dragons? fire-transformed superhuman weirdos? (like Mel/Moqorro)...but then I have trouble seeing what the encompassing category might be.

That may be because -if i go into the occult interpretation- bronze and iron will be the Starks acting as ( spirit center) the Kings of Winter pledging themselves/their service and elemental contribution to the pact/ritual/invocation.

[wolfmaid7]

That may be because -if i go into the occult interpretation- bronze and iron will be ( spirit center) the Kings of Winter pledging themselves/their service and elemental contribution to the pact/ritual/invocation.

[Black Crow]

That certainly makes much more sense...still, I'm not convinced :unsure:

The only problem I've got with identifying the Crannogmen with water is where then does the Drowned God fit in, which is why I suggested the Krakens in the first place.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hmm,not so sure.When Cat tells Ned about Summer killing Bran's would be assassin,he feels a mixture of guilt and fear."If the old gods had sent these wolves,what folly had he done?"

Besides Bran was alive and the 3EC took care of Bran's revival.I think the show links Lady's killing to Bran's awakening where the books don't ,so much.

But I think we can agree on an increasing amnesia afflicting the Starks over the ages.

I think Jojen's line to Bran,-"Truths the First Men knew,forgotten now in Winterfell....." could be interpreted that the secrets are still in Winterfell.

Actually, in Game, the coma-dream-wake-at-end chapter is immediately after the Ned chapter where he kills Lady... but yeah, in complete agreement on the rest

And also, Bran's choice doesn't have to be eliminated--for all we know, it was the sacrifice of Lady that caused Bran to go from complete blackout coma into coma-dream state, with Bran then deciding to fly

[nanother]

There was that thread about the bones of Nagga, the ancient sea dragon actually being remains of a weirwood grove. Also, if the Children tried to bring the hammer of waters down onto the Neck, the Iron Islands could have been caught up in it as well (suggesting that in ancient times they were connected to the mainland). That's a possible link between the Drowned God and the Children, but I couldn't find enough info to put a sensible theory together.

[Black Crow]

I think your latter point is spot on,Fire and Ice are bugging big time; the problem seems to centered around them. However,at the heart of this imbalance at lease from where i sit seems to be (spirit center) be it the wall or Man himself. This goes back to our earlier assertion that the wall must come down it is definitely a hindrance, but i see it as a lesser hindrance to man.The perfect union would be man in unison with the gods. Is there any proof to show that a pact between fire and ice was forged and or broken? If so this pact happen in the presence of weirwoods as witnesses?

We're not aware of such a pact in the books, but we have in the past speculated that there was no victory ending the Long Night, but that after the Children "saved" the Last Hero, there was some kind of pact entered into with the Others/Sidhe, defining the limits of their realm in return for the Starks owing them some kind of fealty as Kings of Winter, but its only a theory.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Not to me. 'Bronze and iron' are what the ancient crown of Kings of Winter was made of. "Bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold." Also,at this point, I see no reason to pair the Krakens with the Children - their relevance to Westeros and to the Starks in particular is just not comparable. However the Children are closely connected to 'water', even though they identify themselves with 'earth'. So, to me, it makes more sense to assume that 'earth and water' and 'bronze and iron' are aspects of the Children and the First Men respectively. 'Ice anf dire' is not so obvious, though - ice is represented by the Others and fire by...dragons? fire-transformed superhuman weirdos? (like Mel/Moqorro)...but then I have trouble seeing what the encompassing category might be.

Earth and Water = Nature

Bronze and Iron = Man

Ice and Fire = Magic

[redriver]

We're not aware of such a pact in the books, but we have in the past speculated that there was no victory ending the Long Night, but that after the Children "saved" the Last Hero, there was some kind of pact entered into with the Others/Sidhe, defining the limits of their realm in return for the Starks owing them some kind of fealty as Kings of Winter, but its only a theory.

That there was a Pact is not a theory.What we know is that the FM and COTF were assigned their respective domains as part of that Pact.What we don't know are the sub clauses and consequences of that Pact.

In that respect wolfmaid7's idea could be perfectly valid.Such as sub- clause 14/6b-"though shalt not burn weirwoods or we will bring winter" or something similar.And 14/6c-"We assign the Starks Winterfell to oversee this" or somesuch.

[Tyryan Lannister]

There was that thread about the bones of Nagga, the ancient sea dragon actually being remains of a weirwood grove. Also, if the Children tried to bring the hammer of waters down onto the Neck, the Iron Islands could have been caught up in it as well (suggesting that in ancient times they were connected to the mainland). That's a possible link between the Drowned God and the Children, but I couldn't find enough info to put a sensible theory together.

I think this is quite probable.

Bringing the Drowned God into it:

We know that the Iron Born are descendents of the First Men. As such, a reasonable assumption to make is that at some point they too worshiped the Old Gods along with their brethren. If the Hammer of the Waters caused the flooding of land that those particular tribes live on, it's certainly possible that one or more weirwood thrones (with the corresponding greenseers) were lost beneath the waves, hence them becoming "drowned gods" which, over time, (d)evolved into The Drowned God

[Tyryan Lannister]

That there was a Pact is not a theory.What we know is that the FM and COTF were assigned their respective domains as part of that Pact.What we don't know are the sub clauses and consequences of that Pact.

In that respect wolfmaid7's idea could be perfectly valid.Such as sub- clause 14/6b-"though shalt not burn weirwoods or we will bring winter" or something similar.And 14/6c-"We assign the Starks Winterfell to oversee this" or somesuch.

The theory that BC, myself, and others have is that there were two Pacts: first is the one which you describe... the second one is the one that came at the end of the Long Night, and it was this one that established the Starks and Winterfell as powers--the stories about the Starks and Winterfell being started after the Long Night seem like they would have some element of truth to them, and whatever we might say about the numbers of when exactly all this stuff happened, a lot of the cause-and-effect seems to be pretty solid (once you throw out the Wall, that is)

[Black Crow]

Earth and Water = Nature

Bronze and Iron = Man

Ice and Fire = Magic

Oh I like this one, very much. So simple and so obvious.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Oh I like this one, very much. So simple and so obvious.

:cool4:

[Little Wing]

Earth and Water = Nature

Bronze and Iron = Man

Ice and Fire = Magic

A trio, no less, GRRM's favorite number, it seems :thumbsup:

Warning: crazy yoga related post on balance coming your way.

I don't know if Fire and Ice annihilating each other brings balance. You need both for balance. It's when one encroaches on another/is disproportionate to the other that imbalance occurs. Opposing forces make the balance. For instance, if you're doing yoga and you're in Warrior 3, you need to reach in one direction with your arms and in the opposite direction with your leg to stay balanced. If one outreaches the other, you lose balance/fall. So, pulling in opposite directions keeps you balanced, in this case.

So, in this magic realm, which one is disproportionate? I think I already asked in this Heresy - is fire/red lot more powerful/numerous than ice at the moment? There are but few White Walkers about... the Children are also few.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think your latter point is spot on,Fire and Ice are bugging big time; the problem seems to centered around them. However,at the heart of this imbalance at lease from where i sit seems to be (spirit center) be it the wall or Man himself. This goes back to our earlier assertion that the wall must come down it is definitely a hindrance, but i see it as a lesser hindrance to man.The perfect union would be man in unison with the gods. Is there any proof to show that a pact between fire and ice was forged and or broken? If so this pact happen in the presence of weirwoods as witnesses?

Earth and Water = Nature

Bronze and Iron = Man

Ice and Fire = Magic

Combining what Wolfmaid7 said with my observation and what Evitagfs posted a few iterations ago about Man being the true antagonist in the series leads me to this conclusion:

Magic and Nature existed in harmony with one another for _____ number of years, and then Man showed up and started to attempt to impose its will upon Magic and Nature, usually corrupting Magic as a means to do so. This upset the balance and said balance won't be restored until Man stops trying to impose its will on others and the largest symbolic imposition of said will ceases to exist, that being the Wall.