Heresy 36

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yeah, I though about it being Benjen transformed/changed into White Walker, but it didn't seem to make a lot of sense. The black, cold hands somehow reminded me of another description of a white walker somewhere? Maybe the one that got Sam his nickname? I can't be sure, as I said, all the books are just one big soup in my head!

Just gotta correct this for future reference and to avoid confusion (which I know can definitely occur here): whoever Coldhands is would have been transformed into a Wight, not a White Walker. They are two separate entities. The Wights are the, for lack of a better term, zombies. The White Walkers are the Sidhe-like Ice beings that bring the cold-mist (or the cold mist brings them) who are somehow involved in the creation of the wights. In the Game prologue, Ser Waymar is killed by a White Walker, and Sam gets the "Slayer" moniker from "killing"* one, while Othor, Jafer, Small Paul, and Thistle all became wights after death. Add in the fact that the term "Others" seemingly applies to just the White Walkers but, as a generic term, could potentially apply to all the Old Races, confusion can ensue--as such, I try as much as possible to avoid the term "Others" and call each group by its clearly identifiable name, such as White Walker, Wight, and Children (of the Forest)

ETA: Forgot the footnote:

*We don't know for sure if Sam actually killed the White Walker, only that the White Walker lost his corporeal form--he might have simply dissolved back into the mists from whence he came

[Tyryan Lannister]

Because Bears had more contact with the Wildlings? (incl. certain Father of Hosts ;))

God I do love this theory and really really hope it comes to be true

[Tyryan Lannister]

I don't think religion as such comes into it. Craster just knows that he's safe so long as he goes on giving up his sons. What's unique, if we can use that word, is that for some reason - rationalised as "blood" - are his sons, which is why they come knocking at his door year in year out rather than doing a random smash and grab.

that's why in my post from earlier I tried to put "worship" in quotes; it's not a "worship" per se, but that's really the closest word that I could think of... it is more of a Tithe to Hell to them than it is a worship (as we would think of it anyways), but a Tithe is still a sacrifice which does connote some sort of "religious admiration" or at least a "religious fear" wherein you realize that the receiver of the sacrifice is a different, "higher" sort of being... that's at least what I mean when I say that Craster "worships" the White Walkers--it's not so much that he actually believes that they are gods (though his daughter-wives certainly do view them as a type of god) but that he sees them as belonging to a "higher" form of existence*

*The thing that I can think of is from the TV show Stargate: SG1: think about the Ancients or, from the later seasons, the Orai (spelling?) They aren't actually gods, but beings of a "higher" form of existence who some ignorant peoples sometime view as gods

[Black Crow]

Why would the Bears remember and the Starks forget though?

I like it though and seems very interesting...

I think the short answer is that somebody has to remember in order to explain why when the time comes

[Black Crow]

I'm afraid I don't prescribe to Craster Sons = Changeling White Walker Theory as it fails to address what I think are some Basics. 1 - White Walkers have been around for 8000 years but Craster for only 50 so something came first and for a very long time before Craster got involved. 2 - Where do the baby humans go & how do they change into Adult White walkers without dying? White walkers bring with them a terrible cold which would surely kill an infant human. I realise we are dealing with a fantasy world thatt has magic & dragons but the practicalities of A WW rocking up to Crasters, taking a baby and then somehow rearing them into a full blown WW seems a stretch.

Well, yes it is a stretch if you're reading the books "cold" so to speak, but it was Gilly's mother and that other woman who started all this off by very forcefully declaring the white shadows were Craster's sons. All they needed to say was the Others are coming, or the white shadows are coming, or the white gods are coming, and Sam would have been out of there like a rat up a drain. Instead we had that relatively lengthy exchange as they tried to get it through to him that "they" were the baby's brothers - Craster's sons.

Add to that we know GRRM is drawing on Faerie lore in which changelings and tithes to Hell figure very largely.

As to the practicalities, well yes, but we are dealing with fantasy and we do have a precedent

Adara was a winter child, born during the worst freeze that anyone could remember… And they said that the cold had entered Adara in the womb, that her skin had been pale blue and icy to the touch when she came forth and that she had never warmed in all the years since. The winter had touched her, left its mark upon her, and made her its own.

Its because of this inner cold that she is able to handle first the Ice Lizards and then the Ice Dragon itself – and why the Ice Dragon eventually comes to rescue her. Presumably the same went for Brandon Stark the Night’s King; born during the magical cold of the Long Night he was himself cold enough to handle his Ice Queen, and that then brings us on to Craster, the most recent father of White Walkers if his wives are to be believed. Dywen the forester describes how he’s suspected of trafficking with demons and concludes “There’s a cold smell to that one there is” (GRRM’s emphasis)

As to how they're then raised, I'm not so sure that they are. In his Tommy Patterson email GRRM said of course

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Now we've seen that of course in the way that one Sam pinked just dissolved into ice crystals and the supposition here is that Craster's sons are being taken because whatever's in their blood means that if they are taken young enough, before they bond with a familiar as wargs, they can learn to fly as free as Varamyr did before he entered his second life, and that they simply use the cold and the resultant ice to create corporeal bodies for themselves at will (hence the uncertainty Tyryan refers to as to whether Sam actually killed that one) and if so that might explain their behaviour, because children can be very cruel.

[Black Crow]

Isn't this the whole reason we came up with the theory of Kings of Winter ruling over all the North (both sides of the Wall) pre-Night's King, Night's King being last King of Winter, and all that good stuff so many Heresies ago?

It is, but speculation as to whether the Mormonts are wargs adds some point to it.

I wonder by the way whether the crow eating his face had something to do with trying to prevent him being raised as a wight.

[TheTizer]

Father of Hosts? Pray tell? (not Craster king of winter and sons no?)

[Capon Breath]

@BC - Sure but White walkers have been around for 8000 yrs and Craster say 50. How did they survive / flourish for the previous c.7950 yrs without Crasters Sons?

You've got 2 conflicting bits of text - Old Nan suggesting the White walkers (paraphrase) "are hungry to drink the warm blood of the living" and Gilly saying the White Walkers are "the sons" of Craster. I don't believe either can be relied on as canon. If I were Gilly what would I think? I'm what 16 yrs old? living in a remote log cabin in effectively a sex cult birthing chlidren by my own own father who then sacrifices them in some way to the white walkers. Is it possible that I can believe the white walkers are the returned sons? Of course but we don't get it confirmed in anyway the white walkers seems to speak a language no-one understands, don't look like humans so what would convince Gilly that its the sons returned? Possibly the word of the one authority figure available - Craster who needs to justify what is happening to the babies?.

"Dear Dad / Husband - why do you keep allowing white walkers to eat our children?"

"Oh don't worry I don't, they are changelings and I have to hand them over but don't worry they are fine they just turn into White walkers"

"Phew - I was worried they were getting thier warm blood drunk - it's good to know they go on to bigger and better things than hanging around in this Log Cabin."

(Sorry went a bit off piste there!)

Anyway - I think there is a suffcient lack of fact & proof about both Gilly & Old Nans inetrpretation tof White Walkers to assume that 1 is right and the other is wrong.

I think its at least as plasuible to think that :

A) Craster sacrifices sons to WW's to remove competition and

B) White Walkers don't abuse a guarnateed food supply hundreds of miles from their suspected base

As it is to think that Crasters Sons are WW chanegelings.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Just gotta correct this for future reference and to avoid confusion (which I know can definitely occur here): whoever Coldhands is would have been transformed into a Wight, not a White Walker. They are two separate entities. The Wights are the, for lack of a better term, zombies. The White Walkers are the Sidhe-like Ice beings that bring the cold-mist (or the cold mist brings them) who are somehow involved in the creation of the wights.

But, if he is a Wight, wouldn't he be more zombie-esque and less intelligent and free-willed (he seems definitely different from all the other wights we've seen up close- the one that tried to kill the Old Bear Mormont, etc...). So, he might be neither Wight nor White Walker?

Edit: I also find it irritating that their White Walkers and Wights. Not Wight Walkers and Wights or White Walkers and Whites. But that just a typing thing. I had to correct it several times in my posts:p...

[Black Crow]

@BC - Sure but White walkers have been around for 8000 yrs and Craster say 50. How did they survive / flourish for the previous c.7950 yrs without Crasters Sons?

You've got 2 conflicting bits of text - Old Nan suggesting the White walkers (paraphrase) "are hungry to drink the warm blood of the living" and Gilly saying the White Walkers are "the sons" of Craster. I don't believe either can be relied on as canon...

Well that statement by GRRM firmly saying that they're not dead certainly contradicts Old Nan, so I'm happy to go with Gilly's mother and the rest on this one.

As to the past, our interpretation of Ygritte's saying that Craster "bears a heavy curse" - as distinct from "is cursed" - is that he's bearing something that's been inherited by him, ie; he's just the latest in a long line.

[Black Crow]

But, if he is a Wight, wouldn't he be more zombie-esque and less intelligent and free-willed (he seems definitely different from all the other wights we've seen up close- the one that tried to kill the Old Bear Mormont, etc...). So, he might be neither Wight nor White Walker?

Well he's a puzzle certainly, which is why there are so many threads discussing him. I have wondered myself whether he is in fact a wight being warged by somebody - just a feeling I get looking at the rather detached way he describes how blood drains to the bottom of the corpse after death, rather as if its not his corpse.

Edit: I also find it irritating that their White Walkers and Wights. Not Wight Walkers and Wights or White Walkers and Whites. But that just a typing thing. I had to correct it several times in my posts:p...

It is very confusing and you're not the only poster to keep tripping up in this way, which is one of the reasons some of us prefer to refer to the white lot as the Others/Sidhe or just the Sidhe, to avoid this.

[Little Wing]

Re: Craster's Cold Gods

I remember we took a closer look at Qhorin's quote about the old powers rising and how he threw them all together:

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants? …Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again"

If Qhorin sees everything supernatural beyond the Wall, including the trees, as one old magical force, then maybe Craster's "getting right with the gods" does refer to the Old Gods, including the cold ones. To him the Others are part of the Old Gods and his life in particular is tied to the Others more than the trees, but he sees them as basically the same force? Or the Old Gods being higher than the cold ones?

Why would the Bears remember and the Starks forget though?

I like it though and seems very interesting...

It's a rather boring explanation but cultures living on islands can be quite isolated and keep more to older traditions. We can see this on the Iron Isles - they're pretty isolated and keep to their old beliefs. Maybe that's the case with Mormonts on their island. The isolation preserves the history/mythology better?

[Black Crow]

Re: Craster's Cold Gods

I remember we took a closer look at Qhorin's quote about the old powers rising and how he threw them all together:

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants? …Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again"

If Qhorin sees everything supernatural beyond the Wall, including the trees, as one old magical force, then maybe Craster's "getting right with the gods" does refer to the Old Gods, including the cold ones. To him the Others are part of the Old Gods and his life in particular is tied to the Others more than the trees, but he sees them as basically the same force? Or the Old Gods being higher than the cold ones?

Yeah, I'll go with that. Although we've got that bit quoted earlier about the greenseers going into the trees when they die to become the Old Gods, that's probably only applicable to the Children, ie; the Earth bit. Perhaps the Sidhe go into the Ice in exactly the same way, hence the stories of them "sleeping" under it.

It's a rather boring explanation but cultures living on islands can be quite isolated and keep more to older traditions. We can see this on the Iron Isles - they're pretty isolated and keep to their old beliefs. Maybe that's the case with Mormonts on their island. The isolation preserves the history/mythology better?

Perhaps they're the King's remembrancers :cool4:

[nanother]

Father of Hosts? Pray tell? (not Craster king of winter and sons no?)

Tormund. It's one of his titles IIRC, and didn't he have an affair with a she-bear?

[TheTizer]

What irritates me is that the Starks forgot, there doesn't seem to be much indication Ned knew much of the magical forces, he actually seems to be blind to them. Although he new plenty about how 'Winter is Coming.' Was he the final nail in the coffin of the Starks forgetting their true purpose or has winter been coming for some time...

[wolfmaid7]

While I like Wolfmaid's idea in principle I think that rather than four it has to come back to the six of Reeds' oath, which doesn't sound as though its peculiar to the Crannogmen, but something older and deeper.

On the contra, even in seeing The Reed Oath now i can identify the ritual; he still called the quaters "by Earth and water" in the middle of that- (spirit center) we have instruments of man for war( bronze and iron) two metals that are not found naturally in nature Iron( in its ore) and bronze( copper and tin) these have to be altered by human hands to be used- their contribution/or the elements they made that defines them- (see the5 ages of man Greek creation story).Then he closed the invocation with ice and fire. I would characterize ice to wind in this story especially when the Starks put them together so much( icy winds,the cold winds are blowing) etc.

[Little Wing]

There's probably something there they do not wish to remember... A dark past. And as others have said on Heresy, some important Starks died abruptly and untimely before they could acquaint their offspring of the skeletons in their family closet (read: the crypts)

Edit: Whoops, ninja'd - this was in response to The Tizer's last post.

[TheTizer]

Tormund. It's one of his titles IIRC, and didn't he have an affair with a she-bear?

Ohhh I see. Very cool!

[redriver]

What irritates me is that the Starks forgot, there doesn't seem to be much indication Ned knew much of the magical forces, he actually seems to be blind to them. Although he new plenty about how 'Winter is Coming.' Was he the final nail in the coffin of the Starks forgetting their true purpose or has winter been coming for some time...

Time has been eroding the memory of the true purpose of the Starks and the Wall.An earlier Stark would not have killed Lady,for any reason.

The Watch was a vague shadow of it's former purpose at the start of the novels,further undermined by the assassination of Jeor Mormont (just as he was putting the pieces together).

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I'll go with that. Although we've got that bit quoted earlier about the greenseers going into the trees when they die to become the Old Gods, that's probably only applicable to the Children, ie; the Earth bit. Perhaps the Sidhe go into the Ice in exactly the same way, hence the stories of them "sleeping" under it.

Whatever differences the Children and the Others may have, they do share a common enemy, as you've pointed out many a time - fire/dragons. Different races with a common enemy joining forces whenever the fire element stirs/gathers momentum... People not knowing the details or forgetting their ancient, unwritten history, put them all under one name - the Old Gods.

When the Children were giving the obsidian daggers to the Watch, they may have been forced to do so through a pact. Don't know if it matters that they were giving these daggers at a time the Others were basically "sleeping", so the Watch had no real use of them...