Heresy 36

[wolfmaid7]

No wonder Danaerys got lost...

Lol now i feel bad for giving her a hard time for not knowing where to go :dunce:

[yestoitall]

Moving pretty fast again, but I feel like the question regarding followers of the cold gods got glossed over, so just wanted to try and tie in some of the earlier discussions (from way way back when...) about the connection between the Starks and the Others. As usual, can't articulate it myself, but:

1) Craster's heavy curse possibly boils down to him having Stark blood.

2) The swords in the Stark tombs are what prevent the dead there from rising.

3) Winter is coming.

4) There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

When the Winds of Winter finally descend on Westeros I assume that the missing piece of the Stark jigsaw will allow whichever members of the family are still around to rediscover their true to connection to the past, including their gods, and enlighten us readers to the true nature of the Others, amongst, well, others! For the first time in many moons (maybe 6...) it feels as if we're moving closer to grappling with the most pertinent ideas.

At which point I just want to repeat what so many of us have said for so long - what a superb testament to the writing of GRRM that in Heresy 36 we're still unsure as to how exactly it's all going to unfold.

I'm away from home for the holidays still, so can't get my hands on the venn diagram/colour scheme/cryptograph I've been working on for far too long, but the recent mention of overlong winters/summers and almost non-existent springs/autumns touched a real chord. Rather than focusing on a two horse race, I think the move towards a larger scheme may well yield fruit. Sure, many of the protagonists are working on assumption that it's an either/or type scenario, but just like the Game of Thrones has several protagonists I think the same applies to ASOIAF.

Until I can refer to my schematics and get a bit more specific I'm going to wait, but I think there's a very persuasive argument to be made for a 4 colour set-up, that is complex enough in its design to reflect the mixing of each of those 4 colours with the remaining 3 - hope you're following me... The discussion about the various gods and their respective followers (of which the red temples, and the Valyrians are just 2 of several perhaps) is just one level at which the schematics can be applied. The beauty of the story is the many other, and equally as deep (not the right word, but don't want to get hung up on semantics) levels on which it also works.

Not posting much as you can see, but still up to date with all 36 so far, and loving it. Now where's that next D&E chapter?

P.S. Just skimming Wolfmaid7's theory regarding quarters, and I'm right with you on that! It's a 4 way thing...

[Melifeather]

Here i my other crackpot theory:

In the traditions of magic whenever a ritual of importance is performed the Quarters are called to balance and protect the sacred space. The quarters form a barrier between you, and the forces you will be working with. An archetype of each of the Elements, know as an Elemental, is called to the four cardinal points around the space. The points are East(Air) Fire( South) Water( West) and Earth in ( North). Different Traditions use different elements for each direction, and some may start calling at a different direction. These elements associated with the hierarchy of spirits- lower-level beings- elementals, who in turn are governed by higher beings, devas, also called the Lords of the Watchtowers, the Mighty Ones, the Guardians or Old Ones. Earth (North) and Water(west) are usually female energies while Fire(South) and Wind(East) are masculine.They all must be equal in the space; to balance the space ;so one-fourth of your space is water, one-fourth is fire, and so on. This is also why the center of the space (where all the quarters meet) is said to be ruled by spirit by those that believe/or by a nexus of power.The spirit center is the sum of all of the elements.

Most of us agree that the SOFAI is about restoring some kind of balance; a balance which in my opinion and others is thwarted by such things as the wall. What I see happening before my eyes in the SOFAI is a ritual taking place . If you look at all the creatures( WW, SIDHE, DRAGONS,DIREWOLVES ETC.) and the elements they are just an act of nature, and nature doesn’t choose sides it only seeks to protect or restore balance.The reason I asked about the various location and birth places of certain characters is that the ritual cannot be completed unless you have representations of each point and element. So for instance-Thank you BC for the info it was very helpful- ill need help working this out- starting from where we think the battle for the restoration of the land will be taking place- lets say the wall(spirit center)

Where are our influential characters in the SOFAI itself hail from whether born or trapped there.

All roads in the end seem to be leading to the wall that's why i call it Spirit center.So far i have Bran who is Earth( North).

I would suggest:

Earth - Bran or Starks

Water - Greyjoys (Euron & Victarion) or Arya/Faceless Men

Fire - Daenerys or Melisandre

Air - Melisandre or Valyrians or Faceless Men

There really isn't a good suggestion for "air". I only listed Melisandre, Valyrians and Faceless Men because they're east.

@yestoitall....I wonder if it's important that Bran and Rickon have Brandon and Rickard Stark's swords? Hodor took one too, but they didn't specify whose.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

There really isn't a good suggestion for "air". I only listed Melisandre, Valyrians and Faceless Men because they're east.

There might not be one. Air is suspiciously missing from the oath of Reeds.

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. “We swear it by ice and fire.”

Not that they're an authority, but you're right, that the air motif does not appear very often. Sansa is the best I can think of who is referred to as "little bird", and is currently in the Eyrie getting closely acquainted with the Arryn's whose sigil is an eagle, and whose words are "high as honor". and who better than Sansa understands that "words are wind" :)

[The Faceless Bard]

Looks like ice (Others) and Water (Krakens) is distinguished though .... so there is still 4 ... even if Water and Ice are the same thing on a molecular level...

[wolfmaid7]

There might not be one. Air is suspiciously missing from the oath of Reeds.

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. “We swear it by ice and fire.”

Not that they're an authority, but you're right, that the air motif does not appear very often. Sansa is the best I can think of who is referred to as "little bird", and is currently in the Eyrie getting closely acquainted with the Arryn's whose sigil is an eagle, and whose words are "high as honor". and who better than Sansa understands that "words are wind" :)

I forgot all about Sansa,notably i forgot where she was.

[Toccs]

but the recent mention of overlong winters/summers and almost non-existent springs/autumns touched a real chord.

Not for nothing but here in Australia we have hot summers followed by cold winters with no real discernible Spring or Autumm.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Not for nothing but here in Australia we have hot summers followed by cold winters with no real discernible Spring or Autumm.

So I think we're finally getting close to what's really going on here: ASOIAF is an allegory for American sports being played in Australia

[Melifeather]

Not for nothing but here in Australia we have hot summers followed by cold winters with no real discernible Spring or Autumm.

That's how seasons used to be here in Minnesota also, but we seem to be experiencing a noticeable climate change with all four seasons warmer than normal. I think we could use a visit by the White Walkers so long as I remember to carry obsidian in my purse.

To consider the White Walkers as gods would be quite a drastic change of thought for me. I've read the series twice and I never saw them this way. When Craster told the NW to get good with the gods I understood him to mean the old gods. If the WW are gods, then Craster and his daughter wives are their only congregation.

I've read other threads that discussed the Targaryens status in old Valyria. It's been suggested that the Targaryens may have been outcasts or exiles due to the fact that they lived on the western outer most edge of the freehold, and the curiously delayed conquest of Westeros. If Balerion the black dread was in their possession for 100 years before the conquest...why the delay?

Could it be that the family was against slavery and that set them apart from the rest of the families that had dragons? Daenerys seems to be opposed to slavery, but perhaps her empathy comes from her own experiences?

[Toccs]

To consider the White Walkers as gods would be quite a drastic change of thought for me. I've read the series twice and I never saw them this way. When Craster told the NW to get good with the gods I understood him to mean the old gods. If the WW are gods, then Craster and his daughter wives are their only congregation.

I don't think that anyone here is advocating considering the Others as gods. It's about what Craster believes or at least how he labels them when he speaks of them. The Sidhe don't have be to actual Gods for Cratser or any other human to consider them as gods.

I don't think that Craster's "get good with the gods" comment is a reference to the Old Golds. The conversation they were having was about the constant attacks by wights/Others on the march from the Fist to Craster's Keep and how they could expect no such attacks while on Craster's land because he is a "godly man".

They are obviously speaking of the Others and the reason that Craster is good with the gods is because he pays his tithe. I don't see how the comment could be interpreted as referring to the Old Gods, because we have not seen any evidence of Craster worshiping them or wierwoods and so would not have any reason to be good with them.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I've read other threads that discussed the Targaryens status in old Valyria. It's been suggested that the Targaryens may have been outcasts or exiles due to the fact that they lived on the western outer most edge of the freehold, and the curiously delayed conquest of Westeros. If Balerion the black dread was in their possession for 100 years before the conquest...why the delay?

The latest SSM on the worldbook doesn't indicate that they were exiled but that they arrived with 4 dragons, and 3 died, with only Balerion remaining. Part of me wonders if they were willing to risk the last surviving dragon in battle in case it was killed. In the next 100 they bred 2 more but probably wanted to wait until they were large enough to be effective in battle. There's also that warg fear rumor. I can't remember particularly clearly, but I think there was mention that Aegon may had traveled to the mainland in disguise to scope things out.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I don't think that Craster's "get good with the gods" comment is a reference to the Old Golds. The conversation they were having was about the constant attacks by wights/Others on the march from the Fist to Craster's Keep and how they could expect no such attacks while on Craster's land because he is a "godly man".

They are obviously speaking of the Others and the reason that Craster is good with the gods is because he pays his tithe. I don't see how the comment could be interpreted as referring to the Old Gods, because we have not seen any evidence of Craster worshiping them or wierwoods and so would not have any reason to be good with them.

Craster may pay his tithe as his curse , but unless he's suggesting that the crows 'get right with the gods' by sacrificing their own sons which seems ineffective/impossible in the short therm, he may be suggesting that they appeal to the old gods who know how to defend against them. Aka Greenseers. Without his comment Sam may never have appealed to the Weirwood in the village.

[Tyryan Lannister]

On the topic of Craster's gods, I think he does "worship" the White Walkers as the "cold gods"-- in discussing Craster, Mormont tells Jon that "he worships crueler gods than you or me" or something to that effect... basically, Mormont is saying that Craster does not actually worship the Old Gods (at least, not in the way that Mormont and Jon do) and he implies that Craster worships the White Walkers

[Black Crow]

Nah, as I said above, Craster is definitely drawing a distinction between the white walkers and the gods, cruel or otherwise, to whom he's giving up his sons. However, whether those gods actually exist may be a different matter

OK I'll revise that slightly. Craster is drawing a distinction between the white walkers (including his sons) and the gods, but that distinction may only be in his mind. The white walkers are not gods, but nor do they serve "gods"

We've talked before about the similarities with the Wild Hunt and its worth noting that as the legend became Christianised the wild hunt became the damned rather than Faerie - presumably a Christian rationalisation of their being "recruited" through the changeling/tithe to Hell

[Lannister Hamster]

I'm pretty sure we do know that there was blood sacrifice to the trees, the old gods. This is not that different than Craster leaving his sons to the cold gods.

I don't see any difference in the logic between worshipping the Sidhe and the Weirwood - both non-human life forms.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's very strange that we haven't seen anyone else worshipping the Sidhe. Every wildling is afraid of them apart from Craster - and Craster as part of his religion gives his sons up. Craster has enough food set by for his family for years of winter - we know he has the stores set by, so I guess he expects to survive.

So either he's cursed by something to have to give up his children to the Sidhe but in turn be saved from them - which doesn't sound that logical.

So to me it looks like we have a religion with one remaining practicioner and a nation of wildlings who decided to overwhelmingly worship the trees instead. Have we seen in the book (not flashbacks) of trees being given blood sacrifice still?

Maybe it's too complicated and I'm reading into something that isn't there and shouldn't be read into but maybe there is a clue to be gleaned from the separation between Craster's worship and the rest of the wildlings.

[Toccs]

Nah, as I said above, Craster is definitely drawing a distinction between the white walkers and the gods, cruel or otherwise, to whom he's giving up his sons. However, whether those gods actually exist may be a different matter

I don't think that he's drawing a distinction at all. He is talking explicity about how the Others and wights won't attack on his lands because he is a "godly man" and he is basically saying that if they want to survive then they should also become godly men. The context of the conversation is about the Others and Craster doesn't fear them because he is "right with them".

Craster referring to the Others as gods doesn't need to imply any form of worship or adoration, Craster bears a heavy curse.

There is also Craster's daughter/wives referring to the Others as "Cold Gods". They have lived their entire lives at Craster's Keep, they could only have learned that there. This means that around Craster's Keep, the Others whom Craster gives his sons to are referred to as Cold Gods. It also shows that they are not worshiped but feared and hated, God isn't always a good thing.

So while I think that Craster was definitely calling the Others gods, I don't think that it implies any form of worship and it certainly doesn't mean that the Others are gods anymore then Stannis is AA because Mel said so. I actually believe that it was said with bitterness as befits a man bearing a heavy curse, Craster after all knows more then anybody that the Others are not gods.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I am completely new here, so forgive me for asking silly questions. Especially since I binge-read all five books in about a month, and I'm confusing what happened in which book and so on. But I do not have time for a re-read at the moment, so I'm glad I found this forum/website.

I like this thread, because you feel the Others are not wholly evil (just as nothing is). Since the appearance of Coldhands I had the feeling he was connected to the Others/white walkers and I feel Bran is definitely getting recruited by the Other side. I was wondering what the current theory was on the identity of Coldhands. I'm sure it is in here (either this thread or another one) somewhere, but I figured it'd be easier to ask ;).

[Black Crow]

Maybe it's too complicated and I'm reading into something that isn't there and shouldn't be read into but maybe there is a clue to be gleaned from the separation between Craster's worship and the rest of the wildlings.

I don't think religion as such comes into it. Craster just knows that he's safe so long as he goes on giving up his sons. What's unique, if we can use that word, is that for some reason - rationalised as "blood" - are his sons, which is why they come knocking at his door year in year out rather than doing a random smash and grab.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I don't think that he's drawing a distinction at all. He is talking explicity about how the Others and wights won't attack on his lands because he is a "godly man" and he is basically saying that if they want to survive then they should also become godly men.

So while I think that Craster was definitely calling the Others gods, I don't think that it implies any form of worship and it certainly doesn't mean that the Others are gods anymore then Stannis is AA because Mel said so.

I got the exact same feeling when reading it. Craster is giving his sons to the scary, cold things in the woods and in return they leave him and his (grand)daughter-wives alone...

[Black Crow]

I am completely new here, so forgive me for asking silly questions. Especially since I binge-read all five books in about a month, and I'm confusing what happened in which book and so on. But I do not have time for a re-read at the moment, so I'm glad I found this forum/website.

I like this thread, because you feel the Others are not wholly evil (just as nothing is). Since the appearance of Coldhands I had the feeling he was connected to the Others/white walkers and I feel Bran is definitely getting recruited by the Other side. I was wondering what the current theory was on the identity of Coldhands. I'm sure it is in here (either this thread or another one) somewhere, but I figured it'd be easier to ask ;).

Welcome to the forum. Asking is easy, getting a sensible answer rather less so...

Very briefly, nobody can figure Coldhands out. The fact he keeps his face muffled up suggests Bran may recognise him otherwise and there's a school of thought that he may be Benjen Stark. On the whole its felt the evidence is against this (if you search you ought to find multiple threads discussing it) but that he may be some older Stark, perhaps even the Nights King.

As to Bran, like Jon he belongs to the Old Gods and therefore is very definitely on the other side so far as Mel is concerned.