OberynBlackfyre Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 all this evilz in da books. ppl dont undastanz es satan satan satan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . .”To me is more than clear what he was going to do...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 To me is more than clear what he was going to do......Perhaps he deliberately didn't try very hard to find her. When Cersei wanted to finish off Bran, he tried to talk her out of it. He had time to think things over this time, too.You don't know, he doesn't know, it didn't happen. Damn Jamie for what he actually did, not what he didn't do.One, if the author wanted to convey certainty, he would have completed the sentence.Two, Jaime's POV's are all over the map. He thinks one thing and does or says another. Case in point:He thought he was going to whack Brienne over the head with an oar, but seconds later, he helped her onto the boat. His POV's are filled with "and yet..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 His actions alone are enough to damn him. His thoughts help us realize how rotten he is.He is becoming a better person just because he is incapable of doing anything else. He is tottaly ruined after losing his hand. I like what he is becoming but I don't think better of what he was when he was at his zenith..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Aemon I Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 He served two kings.. He killed one,(I understand and support him on this but he still broke his oath) and did the other one's wife and had three children from her..He tried to kill a boy.. He did what he had to do, true, but still evil.. He loves his son less than his hand..He acts as if he was too loyal to his oaths (trying not to use his sword on Tully men) yet on the other side he breaks all of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleRickon Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68026-jaime-is-the-most-honorable-man-in-westeros/http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68026-jaime-is-the-most-honorable-man-in-westeros/here is one of the latest threads asking the same questions...I get it that Jamie is a pretty cool character, but retrospectively explaining all his faults away is silly. It's GRRM's universe, and if he's shown one thing pretty clearly, then it's that there aren't any fully white or black characters, and people do evil stuff and good stuff. And Stannis saying one doesn't wash out the other is a pretty basic concept of the whole series IMHO.As someone already said, everyone has reasons for his actions, and every murderer in the world thinks he is justified in doing what he does. That's a psychological fact. But there is a world between understanding someone's motives and that action being morally justified.Jaimie pushed a small child out of the window to cover up for his own crimes. It's not like Bran was a train that was about to hit an unsuspecting Jamie wandering his own path. Jamie is responsible for creating the situation in which killing a small child was the only way to ensure his survival. So maybe he shouldn't have created that situation.Same goes for the The Ned stuff.And Aerys, many think it's Jamie at his best, but I disagree even there. He already killed the pyromancer and hand (same person?), so KL was pretty much saved. He could have easily restrained Aerys and give him to the rebels. Still breaking an oath, but hell of a lot better than murdering the same guy you swore to protect. He could even have knocked him out and gotten the hell out, so many options that achieve both saving KL and keeping a shred of honor.But OK, Aerys is debatable, Ned isn't and Bran never ever is anywhere close to it.I wonder how people felt about someone who during a bank heist has to shoot your little brother/son/whatever in order to get safely out of it. Would that be evil - just because it was their life or that of someone you love?So in the end, I think negating the evilness of early Jamie takes away much of his story arc. He isn't a knight in shining armor, he is a pretty bad, arrogant and detached guy who comes to realize he did stuff wrong in his life when he meets a person he truly cares for. And now we can hold our breath if he can actually be a good guy, because we haven't seen that yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 He served two kings.. He killed one,(I understand and support him on this but he still broke his oath) and did the other one's wife and had three children from her..He tried to kill a boy.. He did what he had to do, true, but still evil..He loves his son less than his hand..He acts as if he was too loyal to his oaths (trying not to use his sword on Tully men) yet on the other side he breaks all of them...Have you met his son? If i had a choice i would love my toenail clippings more then Joffery :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 And now we can hold our breath if he can actually be a good guy, because we haven't seen that yetWe have seen some good things. He risked his own life to save Brienne's life, and before that he saved her when they were on the run and protected her from Ser Loras and also from rape several times, too. He also protected Pia. He put Ser Meryn on notice for beating Sansa, and now Ser Boros is tasting peas.And he just followed Brienne into danger, one handed, to find Sansa. Chances are pretty good he's not going to come out of it alive, and he knows that. He's just turned his back on his family and what protection he had, and Brienne still is in bad shape herself (broken arm still not healed completely likely).Yes, hold him accountable for the bad things, but not the things he didn't do, and give him credit for the good things. That's only fair and arguments against him are stronger when factual, otherwise it comes off like he's so evil instead of a meaningful discussion of what, if anything, he could do to make up for what he did. Nobody is denying what he did. But even heroes in Westeros have blood on their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaele Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The only thing Jaime has done that I can't completely forgive him for is pushing Bran out of the window. Whatever his reason's and influences on him, in the end he still pushed a young boy out of a window with the intent to kill him.I commend him for killing Aerys and in all honesty, if that was a situation I ever found myself in where I was ordered to kill my own father and also allow an entire city to be burned, I would have made the exact same decision.Neither can I fault him for being the only one in his family to stand up for his brother out of the love he had towards Tyrion.I don't think he was ever really "evil", he just made decisions that he felt were the best at the time regardless of how other people viewed him. Jaime knows what the people of Westeros think of him, and in a way to cope with that and as a defense mechanism he started to accept that world view of himself and began to act as if he did not care what others thought of him, but now his true morals have started to come out more and he has a harder dilemma on what to do in certain situations. (Saying he'll do something "evilish", but then doing the opposite/ Saying he doesn't care, but then his actions prove otherwise). I really attribute a major negative influence on Jaime to be Cersei, and now with Jaime cutting Cersei off, he has started to improve his moral standing and his ability to accept that perhaps he can do the right or honorable thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The only thing Jaime has done that I can't completely forgive him for is pushing Bran out of the window.Agree with everything you said. The separation from Cersei started him thinking, and Brienne reminded him of what he might have been. I think he sees the rescue of Sansa as linked to Bran, and trying to make up for that in some way. Losing his hand is also paying a price for his family's misdeeds, Hoat was Tywin's man. The loss of his hand is big, narratively speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Saying Jaime isn't evil for doing evil things for love of his sister, lets off every religious zealot this world has ever produced. Pushing a kid out a window is evil, that's all there is to it lolHe also said that he would have loved to return the cut up body of Arya to Cersei had he found her first. He's evil, doesn't mean he can't travel on a redemptive road, and become a nice person, but at some point I like to believe there is a tally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernshe-wolf Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I agree with some aspects. Everything Jaime does that's seen as "evil" he does for a reason. He pushed Bran out the window to protect his relationship with Cersei- even though I can't fully forgive him for doing that, I still stand by the fact he had a reason. He's reckless, but not selfish or evil.I think Brienne has helped him develop as a person, though.Even if his redemption may not be needed, I still think that I'd prefer to meet Jaime after hes's lost his hand and met Brienne than beforehand. (Ah ha, beforehand.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 He's not evil, we know that after observing his PoV. He is criminally retarded. A bit of a sociopath? Can't really discern why the shit he did was all that horrid. He needs a redemption arc in a prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I agree with some aspects. Everything Jaime does that's seen as "evil" he does for a reason. He pushed Bran out the window to protect his relationship with Cersei- even though I can't fully forgive him for doing that, I still stand by the fact he had a reason. He's reckless, but not selfish or evil.Not this again. Everyone has his reasons for his acts, including the biggest monsters and psychopaths. Ramsay likes flaying and raping people, that's a reason too. Yeah, it's sick and disgusting, but it's a reason. Stalin and Pol Pot had their reasons to kill millions too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I agree with some aspects. Everything Jaime does that's seen as "evil" he does for a reason. He pushed Bran out the window to protect his relationship with Cersei- even though I can't fully forgive him for doing that, I still stand by the fact he had a reason. He's reckless, but not selfish or evil.Yes and a suicide bomber in a school bus surely has his reasons........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I commend him for killing Aerys and in all honesty, if that was a situation I ever found myself in where I was ordered to kill my own father and also allow an entire city to be burned, I would have made the exact same decision.Again he DID NOT save the city by killing the king. He already had killed the pyromancer and the city was ALREADY safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenchofTarth Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Again he DID NOT save the city by killing the king. He already had killed the pyromancer and the city was ALREADY safe.How nice for you to assume that. Fortunately Jaime didn't take that leap of faith and take an enormous chance by thinking it was done with.I agree with a poster above in that the only action Jaime did that has zero justification was with Bran. Though even there I have to say I roll my eyes at a certain emphasis that people here give on the act. Jaime didn't only push a child from a window, he pushed a small child from a window. Even worse! Pfft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleRickon Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Yes and a suicide bomber in a school bus surely has his reasons........I don't think we should follow this road down, but yes, I bet even a suicide bomber in a bus with schoolchildren has his reasons. It starts with the feeling of utter powerlessness and ends with dehumanizing the victims.People having reasons is what makes this series so good to read imho, because it is so much more like real life. There are no Saurons how wander around and search to inflict as much pain on everyone as possible, there are only people whose belief/value system makes what they do seem like the only/best option left. In a way, that kind of makes Ramsey one of the worse characters of the series, because he is kind of cartoonishly evil.But people having (good) reasons for their actions and their actions being evil aren't mutually exclusive. Otherwise we all have to buy into the Nuremberg defense, because most of the guys seriously would have felt very hard consequences for disobeying, so they had a good reason to follow the system. However, and I say this as an Austrian, I firmly believe that they were wrong, and that they should have taken the course that would have been hurting themselves instead of innocents. But I have to hold the rest of the world to the same standard.Jamie should have accepted that his course of crimes (high treason sleeping with the Queen) had brought him to a point where the only option to save him was to sacrifice an innocent, and at that point given up. It was his f**ing fault (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltway Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Yeah, murdering three men because their boss's wife arrested your brother (and the whole chain of events was started by Jaime when he pushed Bran, BTW), is totally understandable and not evil at all. Same for murdering a little child to cover up a major crime.Threads like this really make me laugh. The absurd justifications people come up to defend their favorites are hilarious.You know what makes me laugh your Holier than thou attitude, Jaime is never painted to us in an Evil light he does what he does for his Family. Is Killing one Child Worth Protecting You, Your Lover/Sister, Your 3 Children? Not to mention preventing his whole family from being Disgraced? Yes it is. And he never ordered Bran to be killed that was someone else who if I remember Correctly the signs point to Joff.And about the 3 men yes they were killed, but that doesn't make him Evil the closest he has been to evil could be Chaotic neutral . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltway Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Again he DID NOT save the city by killing the king. He already had killed the pyromancer and the city was ALREADY safe.Maybe he Hated Aerys for what he had done and what Jaime had stood by and watched?Again that doesn't make him evil, and Im not even gonna beat down the suicide bomber quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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