R+L=J v 37

[dragontamer]

I agree, there is nothing wrong.

If Jon was sent to become a KG member I believe people wouldn't question Eddard's decision to alllow it even though it means the same restrictions in his life. It's the current reputation of the NW that makes people question it.

In Eddard's eyes Jon's wish to join the NW must have seemed noble and a nice way out.

[PuzzleTime]

aCoK...p627

Qhorin: You are Jon Snow. You have your father's look.

Qhorin said this the first time he layed eyes on Jon.

[Starks Among Us]

aCoK...p627

Qhorin: You are Jon Snow. You have your father's look.

Qhorin said this the first time he layed eyes on Jon.

That along with Ygritte's (and some of the other Wildling's) "you know nothing Jon Snow" and it seems like for some reason that Jon is well known at the wall and by the wildlings when he arrives..I think even Craster makes a comment...I've just always wondered if their are some people, especially the wildlings who know more about Jon/the Starks etc than what they let on? I mean, granted they could know what they know b/c of Benjen or Mance (his visit to WF) but it's something I've found puzzling even if others haven't.

[Starks Among Us]

George said right before the publication of ASOS that it would resolve the mystery of Bran and the dagger. The only thing that that could possibly refer to is Tyrion and Jaime's conclusion that Joffrey was the culprit.

Yes, I know. I just didn't find that Joffrey doing it really fit. I mean, the reason they give for Joffrey doing it was to impress Robert...Joffrey doesn't seem the type to want to impress anybody. Then when he does kill people he doesn't do it in a merciful fashion (such as a quick slit of the throat) which is why I just could never imagine Joffrey being the one to do it.

Yes I know that Tyrion is framed, I also didn't think that Joffrey was smart enough to put all that together, and it would only be the first time Tyrion was framed for something, later he gets framed for Joffrey's death, which was done by the Queen of Thorns, but I'm pretty sure LF was the grand schemer behind that as well, thus his "oh I must be off to Lysa as soon as possible" when Joffrey's wedding is coming about, he's no where to be seen/blamed/questioned (he does have a habit of slithering out of situations that could implicate him). Tyrion even points out during that conversation (albeit in his head) that LF is very dangerous b/c nobody suspects he's capable of doing harm to anyone, and Tywin and Kevan don't even suspect LF in the least of doing any wrongdoing to the Lannisters b/c he's never been disloyal and owes too much to the Lannisters...I go off topic. My point is LF is probably one of the most dangerous characters in the book and severely underestimated by many of his fellow players. Tyrion seems to be the only one who suspects him of anything, and I don't even think he knows what to suspect him of other than being a slimey piece of work.

@apple martini- granted there is "no" evidence ...as I said it's just the connection I made and even on my second re-read it's still the conclusion I've come to, and even though Martin solves it by saying it was Joffrey I find it much more satisfying to think it was part of LF's plan to bring down the Tulley's and get his revenge. To me it just doesn't seem Joffrey's style. I don't think Joffrey would think far enough to start a fire in one part of the castle, then have the assassin go in, under the impression that Catelynn would have left Bran's side and he'd be an open target....Joffrey isn't exactly the most intelligent of the characters in the book, and even though it was a botched attempt on Brans life....also the assassin says to Catelyn "you wasn't supposed to be here" (or something along those lines) now he could have (and probably did) just mean that Bran was the only one supposed to be there, and therefore Bran was the only one he was supposed to kill, and now he had to kill the lady of the house as well...MY thought was he meant that statement specifically for Catelyn. LF set it up, Bran was the only one supposed to die, Catelyn was not supposed to be there bc LF did not want Catelyn dead and the assassin would be sort of going against orders if he killed someone (Catelyn) that he specifically wasn't supposed to kill, but now he was not going to have a choice. Anyway, as I said, I find it much more satisfying to think LF was behind it as he does seem to be behind the destruction of the Starks and Tulley's in general.

[A Redeemed Hound]

No, Rickon looks like a Tully.

I repeat: out of all of Catelyn and Ned's children, only Arya favors the Stark look.

My bad. You're correct.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

@apple martini- granted there is "no" evidence ...as I said it's just the connection I made and even on my second re-read it's still the conclusion I've come to, and even though Martin solves it by saying it was Joffrey I find it much more satisfying to think it was part of LF's plan to bring down the Tulley's and get his revenge. To me it just doesn't seem Joffrey's style. I don't think Joffrey would think far enough to start a fire in one part of the castle, then have the assassin go in, under the impression that Catelynn would have left Bran's side and he'd be an open target....Joffrey isn't exactly the most intelligent of the characters in the book, and even though it was a botched attempt on Brans life....also the assassin says to Catelyn "you wasn't supposed to be here" (or something along those lines) now he could have (and probably did) just mean that Bran was the only one supposed to be there, and therefore Bran was the only one he was supposed to kill, and now he had to kill the lady of the house as well...MY thought was he meant that statement specifically for Catelyn. LF set it up, Bran was the only one supposed to die, Catelyn was not supposed to be there bc LF did not want Catelyn dead and the assassin would be sort of going against orders if he killed someone (Catelyn) that he specifically wasn't supposed to kill, but now he was not going to have a choice. Anyway, as I said, I find it much more satisfying to think LF was behind it as he does seem to be behind the destruction of the Starks and Tulley's in general.

I don't think anyone is saying Joffrey started the fire more that he just hired the assassin, who then started the fire himself as a distraction to remove all the guards. I took the 'you weren't supposed to be here' as more of a statement that no one was supposed to be there when the fire took hold.

Then again it does seem a little strange for it to be Joffrey, as you say doesn't seem his style.

[FittleLinger]

I don't think anyone is saying Joffrey started the fire more that he just hired the assassin, who then started the fire himself as a distraction to remove all the guards. I took the 'you weren't supposed to be here' as more of a statement that no one was supposed to be there when the fire took hold.

Then again it does seem a little strange for it to be Joffrey, as you say doesn't seem his style.

Joffrey doesn't have "a style". He is a delusional 12-year old with the mindset of an 8-year old at most, who rips pregnant cats open and tears rear books. He thinks he deserves some respect for some reason, and that's why he looks up to his father. Robert might not have been the best king, but dammit, could anyone say it in his face? He thought if he could do what he thinks his father "suggested" he will have done something deserving respect.

To say something is not Tywin's style, or Stannis' style, or Ned's style - yes, but Joffrey wasn't even a person so we could be talking about style.

[Starks Among Us]

Joffrey doesn't have "a style". He is a delusional 12-year old with the mindset of an 8-year old at most, who rips pregnant cats open and tears rear books. He thinks he deserves some respect for some reason, and that's why he looks up to his father. Robert might not have been the best king, but dammit, could anyone say it in his face? He thought if he could do what he thinks his father "suggested" he will have done something deserving respect.

To say something is not Tywin's style, or Stannis' style, or Ned's style - yes, but Joffrey wasn't even a person so we could be talking about style.

Rips pregnant cats open, shoots rabits/cats with his crossbow, wants people drown in casks of wine, strips a 12 year old girl naked in front of the court, rips out someones tounge or offers to take their fingers instead, makes many references of "when I kill Stannis" "when I kill your brother" , has his betrothed beaten....he treats people as his play things, and he ususally wants to witness (if not outright do it himself) the torments that he has in mind. He usually doesn't send someone else to do his work if he can't witness it....

As far as impressing Robert, we never hear what sort of relationship he has with his father, and Joffrey doesn't seem the type who wants to earn the respect of anybody, instead (as you say) he thinks he automatically deserves it for some reason, he doesn't strike me as the type who thinks to himself "oh let me go impress daddy by assassinating his best friends child" ....no, just not Joffrey enough for me. I mean, he doesn't even fear/respect Tywin (or his mother, or his uncle) so why on earth would he respect or want the respect of a king whom most people revere as a drunken whoring sot who has fallen far from what he was when he took the crown? Sorry, as I said, the actions of Bran's attempted assassination are just not Joffrey enough for me. I understand that others dont' agree, as I said, I just find it more satisfying if LF (or perhaps even Varys) was the one who planned it. Either way, we know that people in KL know what's going on at WF (as Varys proved by knowing what was said under the heart tree regarding Catelynn traveling to KL when it was only her and her closest servants under the tree) ....someone somewhere knows what was happening in WF and the king and his court were there long enough for Ravens to go to and from KL.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Joffrey doesn't have "a style". He is a delusional 12-year old with the mindset of an 8-year old at most, who rips pregnant cats open and tears rear books. He thinks he deserves some respect for some reason, and that's why he looks up to his father. Robert might not have been the best king, but dammit, could anyone say it in his face? He thought if he could do what he thinks his father "suggested" he will have done something deserving respect.

To say something is not Tywin's style, or Stannis' style, or Ned's style - yes, but Joffrey wasn't even a person so we could be talking about style.

Would you accept it seems out of character for him then? He seems far more open in his aggression. He wants people to see it and fear/respect him for it. Equally giving the assassin a special dagger doesn't really seem like him either.

The whole assassination smacks far more of Little Finger. Plus he did start the whole thing about it being Tyrion's dagger.

[FittleLinger]

Would you accept it seems out of character for him then? He seems far more open in his aggression. He wants people to see it and fear/respect him for it. Equally giving the assassin a special dagger doesn't really seem like him either.

The whole assassination smacks far more of Little Finger. Plus he did start the whole thing about it being Tyrion's dagger.

It was an opportunistic lie on LF's behalf. He saw the chance and took it.

Joffrey can't kill Bran infront of everyone, because Bran hasn't done anything to him. The Mykah story is a lot different if maybe you are referring to it.

To give someone a distinctive blade is the most utterly moronic thing, exactly what I would expect from Joff.

Also, we know the dagger was in Robert's posession. If LF had really used it, it would be to frame Robert, which 1st) is a bold move even for Littlefinger, because noone would believe that Robert will really kill Ned's child, so they would start investigating, realize the dagger was stolen, and maybe get to the bottom of the story, and 2nd) and more important - why use Robert's dagger to try and frame Tyrion, complicating himself in lies, as we know Tyrion never had the dagger. He would either use something of Tyrions, or use a normal blade and frame Tyrion some other way. It just doesn't make sense for him to use person X's dagger in an attempt to frame person Y, who has no connection to the dagger whatsoever.

[MtnLion]

It's possible for the informant on the boat to have sent a raven on ahead. Here's the thing: If Varys and/or Littlefinger knew that much about the incident, wouldn't they also, in theory, reasonably know that it was Joffrey who had ordered it done? I don't think Baelish actually knows who did it; he just impliciated Tyrion to be a troll.

There is no evidence that there was a theorhetical discussion on the boat between Ser Rodrick and Catelyn concerning events that they had already discussed in the gods wood of Winterfell. As a matter of fact Catelyn is shocked that Ser Rodrick had shaved his moustach, indicating that she and he had not been in each other's company for the majority of the trip. Ser Rodrick was distressed, and probably spent all of his time heaving over the side, or lying in bed trying not to heave. There is no reason to manufacture a scene on the boat.

[Starks Among Us]

It was an opportunistic lie on LF's behalf. He saw the chance and took it.

Joffrey can't kill Bran infront of everyone, because Bran hasn't done anything to him. The Mykah story is a lot different if maybe you are referring to it.

To give someone a distinctive blade is the most utterly moronic thing, exactly what I would expect from Joff.

Also, we know the dagger was in Robert's posession. If LF had really used it, it would be to frame Robert, which 1st) is a bold move even for Littlefinger, because noone would believe that Robert will really kill Ned's child, so they would start investigating, realize the dagger was stolen, and maybe get to the bottom of the story, and 2nd) and more important - why use Robert's dagger to try and frame Tyrion, complicating himself in lies, as we know Tyrion never had the dagger. He would either use something of Tyrions, or use a normal blade and frame Tyrion some other way. It just doesn't make sense for him to use person X's dagger in an attempt to frame person Y, who has no connection to the dagger whatsoever.

we didn't know the dagger was in Robert's possession until much later. in the start, everyone believed it was tyrion's b/c LF said it was so. why would LF frame tyrion? i dunno...easy pickens? maybe he knew catelyn would over react and do something stupid (such as kidnapping someone and starting a war?) which would further destroy house stark....i mean Ned and Catelyn both trusted LF "why would LF lie"? he would lie b/c it's his nature and b/c he can profit from it. in implicating tyrion, he would hope Ned or Catelyn would react rashly, in doing so, it distracts from him, it also paves the way for Ned's ultimate destruction which he does nothing to stand in the way of, and probably was the one who whispered in Joffrey's ear "hey why don't you cut his head off?" .....causing further problems for the Starks and Tully's....both houses whom he feels did him wrong.

[FittleLinger]

we didn't know the dagger was in Robert's possession until much later. in the start, everyone believed it was tyrion's b/c LF said it was so. why would LF frame tyrion? i dunno...easy pickens? maybe he knew catelyn would over react and do something stupid (such as kidnapping someone and starting a war?) which would further destroy house stark....i mean Ned and Catelyn both trusted LF "why would LF lie"? he would lie b/c it's his nature and b/c he can profit from it. in implicating tyrion, he would hope Ned or Catelyn would react rashly, in doing so, it distracts from him, it also paves the way for Ned's ultimate destruction which he does nothing to stand in the way of, and probably was the one who whispered in Joffrey's ear "hey why don't you cut his head off?" .....causing further problems for the Starks and Tully's....both houses whom he feels did him wrong.

It doesn't matter when we find out the dagger was with Robert - what matters is that it was. Again, why would he use Robert's dagger if his intention was to frame Tyrion from the beginning?

[MtnLion]

I always thought of the dagger as "payment" to the catspaw. Want this dagger, do this deed, then you can keep the dagger. Robert has so many daggers that it won't be missed, and it costs Joffrey nothing to do what he heard everyone suggest, since Bran was so broken it would be a mercy to end his life.

Littlefinger is an opportunist, and knows that Starks and Lannisters dislike each other. He is just adding fuel to a fire that has alwyas burned.

[Starks Among Us]

It doesn't matter when we find out the dagger was with Robert - what matters is that it was. Again, why would he use Robert's dagger if his intention was to frame Tyrion from the beginning?

hmmm. my guess would be, he's in touch with Lysa, once tyrion made his way to the eyre he probably never planned on tyrion getting out of there alive and that he did probably put a major hitch in his scheme. had tyrion not escaped, the pieces of the puzzle (that it was roberts) probably would not have gotten put together or much mattered. that or LF didn't care who was implicated (robert) b/c the same end would be met, it would cause distress between house stark and the throne.

[Starks Among Us]

I always thought of the dagger as "payment" to the catspaw. Want this dagger, do this deed, then you can keep the dagger. Robert has so many daggers that it won't be missed, and it costs Joffrey nothing to do what he heard everyone suggest, since Bran was so broken it would be a mercy to end his life.

when has joffrey ever been merciful?

payment to the cat's paw, if LF arranged it, and if the assassin had been successful nobody would ever have seen/had the dagger b/c the assassin would have kept it, no one would have been the wiser and the dagger would not have been missed.

[Dr. Pepper]

we didn't know the dagger was in Robert's possession until much later. in the start, everyone believed it was tyrion's b/c LF said it was so.

Like FittleLinger says, it doesn't matter when we found out or what LF said about the dagger, just that we found out that LF lied about whose it was. The clues are there in hindsight that it was Joffrey.

why would LF frame tyrion? ...causing further problems...

Bingo.

[Starks Among Us]

hmmm...i have moved us off topic of R+L=J...is there anyway to take the tyrion/LF threads and make them into a new topic or does it not matter? sorry :blushing: didn't mean to cause dissension in the ranks.....

another thought ....GRRM says he would make the mystery of Brans assassin known, and we think that Tyrion and Jaime figure it out and that it's Joffrey but none of the characters in the book know LF for what he is yet, and Tyrion is just starting to suspect LF is a not so great person in general....so GRRM couldn't quite come out at this point and tell us that LF was behind it, could he? We have yet to see exactly what LF is capable of or what his grand scheme is (though I have proposed my theory) so, I think that once we (and the characters) discover just exactly what LF is up to and how deep it is, that GRRM will tell us that LF was the mastermind behind the Bran plot...just my thoughts and I know you all think I'm nuts.

[MtnLion]

hmmm. my guess would be, he's in touch with Lysa, once tyrion made his way to the eyre he probably never planned on tyrion getting out of there alive and that he did probably put a major hitch in his scheme. had tyrion not escaped, the pieces of the puzzle (that it was roberts) probably would not have gotten put together or much mattered. that or LF didn't care who was implicated (robert) b/c the same end would be met, it would cause distress between house stark and the throne.

It seems you have a timeline issue. The assassination attempt on Bran was conducted at about the same time as Joffrey was being bit by Arya's Nymeria. Bran recovers conciousness after that attempt, which is when Lady is killed, at the crossroads. So, Joffrey hired the catspaw while at Winterfell or shortly after leaving.

[FittleLinger]

hmmm. my guess would be, he's in touch with Lysa, once tyrion made his way to the eyre he probably never planned on tyrion getting out of there alive and that he did probably put a major hitch in his scheme. had tyrion not escaped, the pieces of the puzzle (that it was roberts) probably would not have gotten put together or much mattered. that or LF didn't care who was implicated (robert) b/c the same end would be met, it would cause distress between house stark and the throne.

No, sorry. Why didn't he implicate Robert from the beginning then? If he knew that was his dagger? And if the truth ever pops out, everybody's first thought would be "Why was LF lying?", not "Robert tried to kill Bran". And when somebody gets caught in a lie, all eyes are on him, because he has a reason to lie. Why create a plan with so many huge possibilities of being exposed, when he could have just done anything but using Robert's dagger and still framed Tyrion.

Answer: Because he didn't plan it at all. That's what the books, Martin, and common sense suggest. I don't really see any more ground for argument.