The Hound/Gravedigger Nonsense

[The guy from the Vale]

I sometimes play with the idea that the epic fight between Sandor and his brother that we all want to read about already happened...way back in GoT during the Hands' Tourney.

I don't like the idea of him fighting RS during Cersei's trial at all, he let his rage go and fighting him here seems like it would be for the wrong reason. The first time around, he came to the defense of Lancel and Martin does like to repeat events so if he should choose to have them come together again, I'd like to think it's to defend someone else rather than merely to exact revenge against his brother. The Hound is dead and I want him to stay dead.

:agree:

Just a little nit to be picked: Sandor saved Loras, not Lancel, the last time around.

[Kittykatknits]

:agree:

Just a little nit to be picked: Sandor saved Loras, not Lancel, the last time around.

LOL, oops. Thanks for the catch. I had Lancel's name in my head as there was discussion about fighting for the Faith during Cersei's trail.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Okay, I've posted this in other threads before, but since I'm incredibly full of myself and tend to think the posts I made should have garnered more attention and resulted in direct responses I feel bored enough to make my own thread.

Am I the only one who believes that Sandor could still very well be dead, and that The Gravedigger most likely/could have been done on by Martin simply because The Hound had a large fanbase?

As in; GRRM made the Gravedigger so that fans could assume that the hound lived IF THEY CHOSE TO.

Because let's face it, that's about the most wrapped up ending any character has gotten in the series.

His brother (as we know him) is dead, Killing him which was Sandor's only goal in life is gone.

The anger that made and drove him as a character has been quenched/driven from him.

He is in a remote, isolated area where he has practically no chance of interacting with anyone again.

If Rober Strong IS UnGregor, his first battle against the faith virtually has to guarantee that he emerges a victor to prove he's a super badass.

Sandor isn't going to miraculously "rise from the dead" just to really be killed by his UnBrother.

The Gravedigger IMO exists ONLY for fans to decide for themselves what finally became of Sandor Clegane.

It also makes no sense for him to "Be Revived" just in the nick of time to save one of the Stark girls.

And it kinda irks me that people believe this will DEFINITELY happen.

Is there anything that suggests that GRRM does this?

Don't get me wrong. While I believe the gravedigger is Sandor, I fully admit he could be dead. We do not know.

But I find the idea that he threw in the gravedigger stuff to please the fanbase as odd. I mean Sandor is popular, but not that popular. Plus, I get the feeling that GRRM is out to tell a story. If it pleases the fans, great. But he doesn't try to please any specific fanbase. I could be wrong though.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

I've always kind of assumed that Frankengregor would be Cersei's champion in her upcoming trial while Sandor the gravedigger will represent the Faith. Now that I think about it, it is kind of anticlimatic to have Sandor finally having his long awaited confrontation with his brother when his brother might be nothing more than a reanimated corpse.

But he's the only guy big and skilled enough to kill that thing.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

Is there anything that suggests that GRRM does this?

Don't get me wrong. While I believe the gravedigger is Sandor, I fully admit he could be dead. We do not know.

But I find the idea that he threw in the gravedigger stuff to please the fanbase as odd. I mean Sandor is popular, but not that popular. Plus, I get the feeling that GRRM is out to tell a story. If it pleases the fans, great. But he doesn't try to please any specific fanbase. I could be wrong though.

I think the Blackwater episode of the HBO series showed that GRRM himself is a Sandor fan. :cool4:

[A Crow Come Over]

I think the Blackwater episode of the HBO series showed that GRRM himself is a Sandor fan. :cool4:

Yes, but who wins that fight? Bronn or Sandor?

[DogLover]

nvm

[Kittykatknits]

I think the Blackwater episode of the HBO series showed that GRRM himself is a Sandor fan. :cool4:

Yes, but who wins that fight? Bronn or Sandor?

FYI, the scene between Bronn and Sandor was added by the producers. They are both huge Bronn fans; Martin had nothing to do with it. The other scenes were Martin.

[A Crow Come Over]

FYI, the scene between Bronn and Sandor was added by the producers. They are both huge Bronn fans; Martin had nothing to do with it. The other scenes were Martin.

He wrote the episode, why would they make him add 1 scene? I'm sorry this just sounds like something I read on the internet that turns out to be not true.

[1234567]

It is completely possible that Sandor is dead. However I doubt the QI scene was to please the fan base. That just doesn't sound like GRRM.

My personal theory (which will no doubt be WAY off base) is that once news gets out in the Vale about how sick SR is and that LF has his bastard daughter betrothed to the next in line, some one, probably Bronze Yohn, is going to engage the Elder Brother to help SR. The QI is not that far from the Vale and it was specifically mentioned that the EB can cure things that even a maester can't. I think Sandor will accompany him to the Vale.

Now moving on to Sansa. At the moment she has no real reason o turn against LF. I don't think she knows LF is trying to kill SR and the Lysa thing is tricky as Lysa was trying to kill her. Edit: Sansa may not like LF and be wary of him, but at present she has no reason to kill him. She needs something major to turn against LF enough to plan to kill him.

Sandor was in the Throne Room when LF betrayed Ned and held a knife to his throat. Also it is also possible that Joff boasted about LF persuading him to behead Ned instead of sending him to the Wall. Sandor can tell Sansa about this. Sansa trust Sandor and their friendship (or whatever the hell it was in KL) was never noticed by anyone.

Sandor is Sansa's catalyst into moving against LF.

Or at least that's my theory.

[Kittykatknits]

He wrote the episode, why would they make him add 1 scene? I'm sorry this just sounds like something I read on the internet that turns out to be not true.

He didn't write the scene. The info comes from a podcast interview with the director of the episode. Believe me or not, I don't really care.

[1234567]

FYI, the scene between Bronn and Sandor was added by the producers. They are both huge Bronn fans; Martin had nothing to do with it. The other scenes were Martin.

The producers gushing over Bronn, really makes me hope that GRRM has him do something terrible, that they will not be able to get away from. Bronn's character is getting way to important in the series, and he is not in books 3,4,5 that much, so if they make extra scenes to keep him in, then proper scenes will be cut.

[Ladylance]

If Sandor is really dead/and or never going to leave the QI, why does Sansa think about him in every single chapter of hers (bar two)? And why put in the unkiss (or is that just fan-service too?)? Jaime also seems to think about him a disproportionate amount. Ultimately though, I think there was no point to that scene on the QI if it's never going to be significant.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

The producers gushing over Bronn, really makes me hope that GRRM has him do something terrible, that they will not be able to get away from. Bronn's character is getting way to important in the series, and he is not in books 3,4,5 that much, so if they make extra scenes to keep him in, then proper scenes will be cut.

I would say that is already happening.

[redviper9]

As many have already noted, I think the OP is focusing too narrowly on one of the ways Sandor -- if he is still alive, and I think he is -- can get back into the narrative arc. I'm not a big believer in the "Sandor will fight Robert Strong" theory, in part because Bob Strong isn't technically Gregor, and also because the Elder Brother goes to great lengths to spell out that the desire to kill the Mountain belonged to the Hound (and it was the Hound persona, not Sandor, that died in the Riverlands). However, just because I don't believe Sandor will fight FrankenGregor, doesn't mean he can't impact the story. I for one still believe that he'll have a part to play in either Sansa's or Arya's arc, and possibly both.

Like others, I also don't believe that GRRM would keep Sandor alive just to "throw a bone" to the Hound's fans, or that it's clearly obvious that Sandor might be alive and well. If popularity determined which characters lived and died in ASoIaF, Ned and Robb would still be among the living. And, like others, I completely missed the hints that the gravedigger was Sandor until I started coming on to the forums (just like I also completely missed the Frey pies).

[A Crow Come Over]

He didn't write the scene. The info comes from a podcast interview with the director of the episode. Believe me or not, I don't really care.

If you're referring to this interview: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

Then, yes, you are wrong. They only added the part where Sandor cuts someone in half and then Stannis cleaves someones head in half later in the ep.

[wonder1859]

One of the first rules a writer learns is that every scene must drive the plot forward. If it's not doing that, then it doesn't belong in your story. There is no way, in my most humble opinion, that GRRM would take the time and effort to create Elder Brother (and his back story, part of which includes telling Brienne about his own "death" on the Trident) and the Quiet Isle for the sole purpose of telling his readers that Sandor Clegane is dead. Not when a paragraph or two would be more than sufficient to share that information with his readers, if that's all he wanted them to know. To construct an entire chapter for no other purpose than that would be incredibly messy and inefficient of him. I don't see how anyone can carefully read that chapter, with all the clues embedded within it, and come to the conclusion that Clegane is dead and his story is over. The Hound is dead, without a doubt. But Sandor Clegane is not.

Of course I could be wrong. But if I am, then GRRM isn't anywhere near as talented a writer as I think him to be.

[Kittykatknits]

If you're referring to this interview: http://www.empireonl...y.asp?NID=34164

Then, yes, you are wrong. They only added the part where Sandor cuts someone in half and then Stannis cleaves someones head in half later in the ep.

I got mixed up on where I heard it but still...

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3323591

ETA: It's in the sword and laser interview and Martin does talk about the producers wanting it although he doesn't go in to a lot of specifics.

[Jolene Brown]

GRRM might as well have included a huge red arrow with flashing christmas lights all over it pointing to the Hound in that scene. I understand wanting him to be over his rage and not wanting him to come back into the story in a contrived or irritating way, but to me, saying the Gravedigger is the Hound is basically just like saying grass is green and the sky is blue. I don't even consider it a theory. There is so little ambiguity in the writing. The petting the dog, the size, the limp, even the very careful wording used by the Elder Brother. It's just a basic fact of the series. The big question is what GRRM intends to do with it.

[Kittykatknits]

One of the first rules a writer learns is that every scene must drive the plot forward. If it's not doing that, then it doesn't belong in your story. There is no way, in my most humble opinion, that GRRM would take the time and effort to create Elder Brother (and his back story, part of which includes telling Brienne about his own "death" on the Trident) and the Quiet Isle for the sole purpose of telling his readers that Sandor Clegane is dead. Not when a paragraph or two would be more than sufficient to share that information with his readers, if that's all he wanted them to know. To construct an entire chapter for no other purpose than that would be incredibly messy and inefficient of him. I don't see how anyone can carefully read that chapter, with all the clues embedded within it, and come to the conclusion that Clegane is dead and his story is over. The Hound is dead, without a doubt. But Sandor Clegane is not.

Of course I could be wrong. But if I am, then GRRM isn't anywhere near as talented a writer as I think him to be.

I agree. I've argued before that if Martin just wanted to end his story and give the man peace, then he could have added a few paragraphs to the chapter where Arya leaves him. Change it so that he's a bit worse off and she's there as he dies. She wouldn't give him the gift of mercy, he'd have a few more final words, and the Sandor would be at peace. Yet Martin very purposefully chose not to do that and I think it's for a reason. He spent an entire chapter going in to detail on the EB's story and the QI and he's a better writer than doing this to merely throw Hound fans a bone. Bad pun, I'm sorry.