The Hound/Gravedigger Nonsense

[The Chequered Raven]

He'll kill unGregor, just his motivation won't be self serving revenge but rather a necessity he'll reluctantly embrace, none is so accursed as the kinslayer.

Is it still kinslaying if you - uhmm, "kill" - the undead zombiebody of your former brother?

[chrisdaw]

Or is it a mercy to lay to rest the undead? It's a good question, one probably worth exploring.

[eggs]

I never really got the theory tbh. Sandor's scar is well known and it makes no sense for Brienne not to make any mention of it on the gravedigger...or did i miss something?

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

I'm pretty sure Sandor is alive, but it wouldn't surprise me if his story was finished. At the most, he will appear once more.

[matt b]

I never really got the theory tbh. Sandor's scar is well known and it makes no sense for Brienne not to make any mention of it on the gravedigger...or did i miss something?

The gravedigger is a novice, and it's established earlier in that chapter that novices are always cowled and with scarves on their faces, so Brienne & company could not have seen his face. The most telling details are his instant rapport with Dog, his injured leg, and (most importantly) the fact that he's taller than Brienne. There's a very short list of people in Westeros taller than her, and Sandor is one of them.

[NotSoSilentSister]

The narrative purpose of the Hound is to be saved by Sansa.

[Lord Martin]

Sandor is like Gollum in LOTR. He is a despised character, but also one to be pitied. The concept of mercy is tried and true in fantasy... a character is given mercy and ultimately is a significant factor later on in the story line.

But it would be just like GRRM to turn that trope on its head and have the saved character simply go back to living a quiet life.

I just finished a re-read of ASOS and the Hound's last chapter with Arya is quite sad and caused me to look at the Hound in a better light.

Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . . "

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

Sandor has some real anger/guilt cyclical problems but this is the first time we really see a weakness in his armor. I also think the wounded animal lines feeds in nicely to the "hound is dead" play on words.

But we have no concrete proof one way or the other. Its a nice open ended bit. For now readers can read into it as they like and who knows, maybe GRRM will use him again.

But I personally don't see him fighting against unGregor. It was the Hound who was motivated by rage and wanted to kill his brother (the worst offense possible in the world... kin-slaying). But I could certainly see him playing a role in either Arya or Sansa's arc later on.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I never really got the theory tbh. Sandor's scar is well known and it makes no sense for Brienne not to make any mention of it on the gravedigger...or did i miss something?

See FFC chap 31, p.509. The brothers wear cowls that obscure their faces. Earlier in that chapter it states that some also wear scarves around the lower part of their face. The GDs lameness and unfamiliarity with a spade are specifically commented on in that same passage.

[Lyanna Stark]

I wouldn't pin too much hope on a return of mr. Hound if that's your main reasoning. People also quite regularly chat about for example Mad King Aerys, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur Dayne. I don't think we can expect them back any time soon.

Mad King Aerys was a king and Dany's father, Jaime's murder victim and a major character all around. The madness and downfall of Aerys was what started the current drama with Robert, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime et al in many ways.

In comparison, Sandor Clegane is a nobody, a second son to a minor noble with no lands, no holdfast and only his skill. From that point of view, he is about as important as Ser Bonifer Hasty to the story, yet we have a lot of character development for him. He was introduced already in one of the earliest AGOT chapters, and we have seen how GRRM has taken pains to first present him in one light, and then have reader perception change. Why bother investing so much in a character just to dump him, unresolved?

And for people who *think* it's totally resolved, well, then that needs to be motivated, but I don't think so. Sandor has been falsely accused of the Sack of Saltpans, he's "died" metaphorically and been reborn. (And as Ragnaros noted, he is almost the only character to have two rebirth scenarios in his POV, first the fight against Beric under the Hollow Hill, and then at the Trident.) Again, that is an awful lot of work to put in with a character that is to be dropped, and that has no importance when it comes to power or inheritance.

Also, if a character is constantly name dropped in various chapters, then that normally means that a "reminder" is left for the reader. Now, Sandor is constantly talked about "post" his death, by various characters. He's even mentioned in ADWD, despite it being mainly about Essos and Jon Snow.

Hence, the pointers are towards "no dropped out of the story", but of course, everyone is free to think whatever they want. I just rely on what is in the text.

[eggs]

^^If thats the case, it probably is him, and I await his return.

[JaegrM]

....Why bother investing so much in a character just to dump him, unresolved?

And for people who *think* it's totally resolved, well, then that needs to be motivated, but I don't think so. Sandor has been falsely accused of the Sack of Saltpans, he's "died" metaphorically and been reborn. (And as Ragnaros noted, he is almost the only character to have two rebirth scenarios in his POV, first the fight against Beric under the Hollow Hill, and then at the Trident.) Again, that is an awful lot of work to put in with a character that is to be dropped, and that has no importance when it comes to power or inheritance.

Also, if a character is constantly name dropped in various chapters, then that normally means that a "reminder" is left for the reader. Now, Sandor is constantly talked about "post" his death, by various characters. He's even mentioned in ADWD, despite it being mainly about Essos and Jon Snow.

With people masquerading as 'The Hound' is it surprising that he still gets name drops?

Lem even says something about how wearing the helm will frighten his enemies.

It's a plot device that got Jaime to go with Brienne.

I posted this earlier

• 
  
  

• In the Beginning you introduce the reader to the character and the situation they find themselves in. Plot Point 1 is a situation that drives this character from their "normal" life toward some different conflicting situation that their story is about.
  
  • Great stories often begin at Plot Point 1, thrusting the main character right into the thick of things, but they never really leave out Act 1, instead filling it in with back story along the way.
    

  [*]In the Middle the character develops through a series of complications and obstacles, each leading to a mini crisis. Though each of these crises are temporarily resolved, their story leads inevitably to an ultimate crisis—the Climax. As the story progresses, there is a rising and falling of tension with each crisis, but an overall rising tension as we approach the Climax.

• In the End,Tension rapidly dissipates
  

That's from an essay on how to write a character arc from beginning to end

That pretty much sums up the hounds arc from intro to his 'death' damn accurately

[Scipio Africanus]

Mad King Aerys was a king and Dany's father, Jaime's murder victim and a major character all around. The madness and downfall of Aerys was what started the current drama with Robert, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime et al in many ways.

In comparison, Sandor Clegane is a nobody, a second son to a minor noble with no lands, no holdfast and only his skill. From that point of view, he is about as important as Ser Bonifer Hasty to the story, yet we have a lot of character development for him. He was introduced already in one of the earliest AGOT chapters, and we have seen how GRRM has taken pains to first present him in one light, and then have reader perception change. Why bother investing so much in a character just to dump him, unresolved?

The Hound can be compared to Beric Dondarrion. And that stayed the same guy. Both Rorge and now Lem have become "the Hound", and considering Rorge's terrible crimes at Saltpens and Lem continueing his criminal activity against the Freys, it's only logical that people still talk of the Hound.

Besides, you're underestimating the Hound's reknown. Besides being Cercei's pet and Joff's bodyguard he also likely entered tourneys regurlarly. The world of tourney fighters and professional men-at-arms is pretty small, and the Hound certainly was as recognizable (big, scarred, his customized helm) as was his a-hole brother, so its no surprise a lot of people know the Hound if only by discription.

It's like with athletes and sporters today, depending on people's interest, potentially billions of people around the world know at least a name, and if you follow a team you'd know a lot of names each season.

A tourney must've been like a world football tournament in rl. Everyone would want to see a bunch of armoured dudes knock each other off a horse with a big stick in a competition.

To conclude I'm not surprised people still talk of big and strong warriors in Westeros even if they're gone. They'd still talk of Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower and Lord Beric Dondarrion for centuries to come most like, if only in songs...

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The Hound is dead, Sandro Clegane (freed from his hound personality) has another purpose I forgot to mentioned

He needs to bring justice for the one who is carrying his helmet and is doing horrible crimes using his ''reputation'' through his helmet

And I think he'll be the one who will destroy UnGregor and put his soul to rest.

and He'll probably see Sansa again, He'll have to sabe her life or she will save him.

[JaegrM]

The Hound is dead, Sandro Clegane (freed from his hound personality) has another purpose I forgot to mentioned

He needs to bring justice for the one who is carrying his helmet and is doing horrible crimes using his ''reputation'' through his helmet

And I think he'll be the one who will destroy UnGregor and put his soul to rest.

and He'll probably see Sansa again, He'll have to sabe her life or she will save him.

At least half of those purposes would be based on using 'The Dark Side of The Force'

Hang on, I just came up with an idea, that I want to make into a whole new topic that semi relates to this.

[Quiet Isle]

I'm on the side of Sansa and Arya hooking up at some point and having a deep conversation about Sandor. It's a major link between the two of them. If he gets captured, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they come up with a plan together to save him. It makes sense. And during that conversation I think Arya is going to get the drift that there's more to the relationship between Sansa and Sandor than Arya's with the Hound. And I think Arya is going to point that out in no uncertain terms to Sansa, and as a good thing (compare and contrast that to her reaction to Sansa's airy-fairy teen love for Joffrey). With Sansa's political knowledge and Arya's FM and warrior experience, they're the perfect combo to GO GET HIM. If Martin does that, I'm going to get up and cheer to the old gods and the new.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

It's epic fantasy, not an understated western.

Completely off-topic, but I think there is something of the Western in some of the conversations throughout the books (with the chance for more to come).

Brynden Tully and Jaime Lannister is perhaps the best embodiment of this (even if there was no "shoot-out").

I'm also looking forward to the likely

Hotah/Darkstar

showdown.

On topic, Sandor is alive. Little to no idea how he's going to factor back into the story though. I think we'll be waiting til at least DOS to see him again.

[JaegrM]

Made this topic, after this possibility came to mind after it popped into my head reading some responses, thought it warranted it's own thread, but it relates.

http://asoiaf.wester...-in-winterfell/

The closest I'll be willing to go with a compromise about the Hound returning to the story in a believable manner.

I still prefer my original argument, but I think this makes sense as well.

[Lyanna Stark]

With people masquerading as 'The Hound' is it surprising that he still gets name drops?

Lem even says something about how wearing the helm will frighten his enemies.

It's a plot device that got Jaime to go with Brienne.

I posted this earlier

And that explains why he is mentioned in Cersei's, Kevan's, Dany's, Sansa's and Arya's chapters? I don't think it does. He is a plot device of sorts in Brienne's and Jaime's, but that fails completely to explain the others.

Also, your essay doesn't cover the story either, unless you tend to think all the character development around Sandor/The Hound was put in place so that he could become a monk. I think that is about as likely as Jon Snow being dead or Arya remaining a Faceless Man for the rest of her life.

[Le Cygne]

With people masquerading as 'The Hound' is it surprising that he still gets name drops?

Lem even says something about how wearing the helm will frighten his enemies.

It's a plot device that got Jaime to go with Brienne.

The author chose to have the Elder Brother leave the Hound's helm. He chose to have Brienne say the Hound, when she could have said any number of other things to get Jaime to come (like, please come). Just as he chose to have Stranger stay with Sandor. And so on.

[Teren_Kanan]

Flawed logic. Because he's still featured throughout the other POVs. Is this because people can't help thinking and talking about him since he's that awesome, or because he's still got a role to play in the story? Either way, he's still in the story.

What is wrapped up about Sansa's part of the story? She's thinking about the last time they met, wishing he was there, hanging onto his cloak, wondering how he is and what he's thinking, remembering what he told her, remembering what he did for her, thinking about kissing him, hearing his voice, comparing other men to him (but they aren't as "heavily muscled"), dreaming about him, etc. This goes on throughout her POV's for 2 books.

Then there's "Where is the Hound?" in just about every other POV. Everyone is talking about him. Jaime, Kevan, Cersei, Brienne, ... His name even lives on.

Then there's the island that seemingly exists solely to tell us about a big novice who shovels dirt at knights walking by and gets scolded for it, and a badass horse just like his master who just bit off someone's ear.

I think there's some problems with your logic here-

1) While it might seem obviously accepted around these parts on internet fan sites, it's not really that obvious in the books. For example, I didn't pick up on it at all when I first read it, and I have several friends as well who did a double take when I told them "What the F? Sandor's alive? Where the hell did you get that from?" That tends to precipitate against it being GRRM screwing with people, since imo it would really be much more obvious to anyone reading it that this was "supposed" to be Sandor.

2) I think it's very difficult to say Sandor's story is done. The fact that he is still being talked about across several POV's (Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, etc.) leads me to believe his story is not done. He has unfinished business with Sansa and possibly Arya as well, and it's highly likely that while Gregor is "dead", Sandor still might have a bone to pick with "Robert Strong", who might get involved with Sansa's arc based on the prophetic vision of the ghost of High Heart of Sansa slaying a giant.

3) I wouldn't really feel certain in asserting that the Quiet Isles are so isolated and remote that Sandor is too far away to get involved with anything. Arya is in freaking Braavos, Dany is in Slaver's Bay, both much further away from the action than the Quiet Isles and both will be involved in Westeros by the time the story ends. If GRRM wants Sandor to get involved, then he will easily get him involved.

4) About Robert Strong, who is to say that it has to be Sandor to fight him right away in the battle for Cersei's innocence? It can really be anyone and will probably be fodder to establish Strong's "badassness", who then might be sent away to retrieve Sansa or something like that.

5) This is a fantasy series after all. Protagonists are constantly and consistently put in dangerous situations only to be saved in the nick of the time by somebody. That's a good way to create drama. Sansa spent the beginning of the books treating Sandor like a human being and cultivating that relationship, who is to say that doesn't pay off for her big time when she eventually needs his help?

If Sandor is really dead/and or never going to leave the QI, why does Sansa think about him in every single chapter of hers (bar two)? And why put in the unkiss (or is that just fan-service too?)? Jaime also seems to think about him a disproportionate amount. Ultimately though, I think there was no point to that scene on the QI if it's never going to be significant.

These are basically the reasons I feel Sandor's storyline is not finished. Will he barge into Kings Landing and take on Ungregor? Probably not. But a Quiet ending to appease fans and no more Sandor in the books? Seems very unlikely. I don't think Martin does things just to appease fans. But for me the most compelling reason for Sandor's storyline not being finished is from Georges mouth.

When asked about this discrepancy George R. R. Martin simply said that Sansa is an “unreliable narrator” and the kiss “will eventually mean something”.

Maybe this will only have to do with Sansa, but it again seems unlikely.