A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Techelles]

I just think that snow and kings need to be tied together in context in order for there to be any foreshadowing tied to it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from saying OMG JON every time 'snow' and 'king' appear in the same paragraph? It becomes too much of a slippery slope. People could find allusions to anything they wanted to that way.

I definitely see where you're coming from. Literally my first thought when I opened this thread was exactly what you said: it's out of context, they were talking about the northerners. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked it, and the more it seemed like something Martin would do. I certainly won't deny that I want to believe, though. I guess I just hope I stay near the top of that slippery slope.

[Fire Eater]

Here's another that was found in the Arya re-read threads:

“That’s the real king of this castle right there, older than sin and twice as mean... One time the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he was like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

The cat is Rhaenys's kitten, Balerion. The cat is called the "black bastard" which could be used to describe Jon as he is a member of the NW. It is also described as "the real king of this castle"

I see another connection to the Moon and Sun in the scene of Balerion snatching the quail from Lord Tywin, because in ancient Greece the quail was one of the animals sacred to Apollo, a god associated with the sun, and his sister Artemis, a goddess associated with the moon (although, strictly speaking, the Hellene sun and moon deities were Helios and Selene, many other deities were also associated with these two celestial bodies), which given the Stark sisters’ connection with the Moon and Sun, evidently foreshadows that the Lannisters would lose both girls, one in the light of day with the help of a Night’s Watch brother, whose uniform is black like the colour of the cat, and another in the blackness of the night, illuminated only by the moon. On the other hand, a second interpretation leads us to the Lannisters’ initial military defeats at the hands of the Stark-Tully alliance and the capture of their golden boy; for the Roman legions, the quail was a metaphor for valiant fighting and courage in battle, and seeing quails in the field before armies clashed was an omen for victory, so better not to frighten them out of the battlefield or lose them from sight.

And there’s a third foreshadowing for Tywin’s future and that of his House: the quail is a bird with a preference for southern latitudes, and because of that it’s a bird of spring, and a bearer of good luck and prosperity. If you happened to see or catch one of these birds, you had to chant:

Bring me victory, little quail,

Grant me success in my plans,

Guard my steps, warning of dangers.

Shower me with good luck and happiness.

But if the quail resisted and flew away, or you lost it somehow, then what awaited you was neither fortunate nor blissful. Tywin and his House succeeded temporarily, but in the end he didn’t live to see Spring, and his work is in danger of disappearing.

[Budj]

awesome thread.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Here's another that was found in the Arya re-read threads:

“That’s the real king of this castle right there, older than sin and twice as mean... One time the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he was like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

The cat is Rhaenys's kitten, Balerion. The cat is called the "black bastard" which could be used to describe Jon as he is a member of the NW. The cat is described as "the real king of this castle"

Jon really was called the Black Bastard once in the books:

ADWD; Arya (The Blind Girl)

But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman’s Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him.

[Zupoleon]

Jon really was called the Black Bastard once in the books:

Great catch, insanely subtle clue that Jon is the REAL king of the castle, heheh

[Florina Laufeyson]

Oh gods this thread rules. Theres so many little hints peppered all over the series eluding to Jon possibly being a king. Theres also the "king's blood must be burned to awaken the Stone Dragon."

Hmmmm.....

[Fire Eater]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

The wall of ice is obviously the Wall and the flower is the blue rose. The blue rose is traditionally associated with royal blood and denotes regal majesty.

There is also the tale of Torgon the Latecomer that acts of foreshadowing if anyone wants to here it.

[FittleLinger]

And of course, the cat is black and named after the greatest dragon ever. Ok, I'm sold on to this clue, you guys are awesome.

[Roza Ahai]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

The blue rose is traditionally associated with royal blood and denotes regal majesty.

I thought the blue rose is associated with Starks.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think Robb's succession is more complicated than some posters make it seem. Yes, Jon is (presumably) named his heir. But...

First, The will was made under false assumptions (Bran and Rickon were thought dead). Second, Jon has sworn a vow to the Night's Watch. If it continues to exist, how could he ever justify executing deserters himself? (I'm putting aside death and resurrection issues here). Third, legitimized bastards are a tricky issue with no set rules.

[Bolivar]

Wylla Manderly was calling for White Harbor to join Stannis as an obvious, logical, and demanded-by-honor thing to do.

Everyone's entitled to theories, but it goes way too far when everyone is trying to explain away and around facts in the book just because of where they want the story to go.

[Kittykatknits]

This one is interesting because a lot of people read that as some sort of foreshadowing of Tyrion being a king. But if you read it as a comparison between Tyrion and Jon, then it takes on a completely different meaning.

I like it. Or you could interpret it that Tyrion's shadow is tall as a King, but since Jon is taller still than a King, he is a King of Kings.

Little late to the discussion but still want to put my two cents in. Seems important that Jon notices that Tyrion's shadow is as tall as a king- but only for a moment. I always took that as a reference to Tyrion's time as a Hand in KL which was just for a moment. But, if we are looking at it from the perspective of Jon as king, Tyrion's shadow could represent the momentary time which the Baratheons/Lannisters hold power with the IT. Tyrion's shadow is just a moment but Jon is still going to be standing taller than him afterwards.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Wylla Manderly was calling for White Harbor to join Stannis as an obvious, logical, and demanded-by-honor thing to do.

Everyone's entitled to theories, but it goes way too far when everyone is trying to explain away and around facts in the book just because of where they want the story to go.

Wylla still showed that she was ultimately a Stark loyalist. She wanted vengeance for the Starks, not because she wanted Stannis as the king. So I don't get what point you're trying to make.

[Roza Ahai]

First, The will was made under false assumptions (Bran and Rickon were thought dead).

It doesn't make Robb's will unlawful. Cat warned him not to do it because she was afraid that her survived children would be put aside by this will.

Second, Jon has sworn a vow to the Night's Watch. If it continues to exist, how could he ever justify executing deserters himself? (I'm putting aside death and resurrection issues here).

That is a serious issue because the men of the NW give an oath not to take a crown.

Third, legitimized bastards are a tricky issue with no set rules.

Well, Ramsy is a legitimized bastard, and he is considered as Roose's heir. If his legitimate son shows up, his life wouldn't last that long. In J. Snow's case Jon would refuse the North crown if Rickon appear in the North.

[sertravisredbeard]

Those parallels between Jon and the Daeron's was pretty awesome. I remembered how his hero was the Young Dragon but didn't make the connections to the Dornish/wildlings joining the realm thing. Bowen Marsh and his cronies are like the traditionalists in the Blackfyre Rebellion, refusing to realize the world is changing, for objectively good reasons.

As for the Jon legitimized stuff, my fantasy is that whichever Starks end up being revealed and returned to Winterfell will tell all their advisers and political rabble rousers to shut the hell up and get in line. Whichever younger member of the generation that shows up will be ecstatic that the other ones are still alive. They won't care about the legal reasons why Jon doesn't count as a Stark because of some piece of paper, or that Sansa is was officially married by a bunch of assholes to a man who never made her consummate the marriage. Even wild little Rickon will be more than happy that he's home with his siblings. They'll just rule together as Starks. And tell whoever doesn't like it to screw themselves.

The petty politics of the realm tore their family apart twice, and they won't let it happen a third time. Or I'm just being my useful hopeful self and won't be able to find out how any of this resolves itself for at least another five years.

[Free Northman]

Jon cannot be King in the North and King on the Iron Throne both.

But he can be first one and then the other. So chronologically there will be two reveals in Jon's future. First that he is named in Robb's will - which will happen in the next book.

This will allow him to unite the North.

Then in the final book, the big reveal of the entire series will show Jon being Rhaegar's son. That will lessen his claim to Winterfell - at least symbolically - as he is not Eddard's son after all.

He will then out of his own volition guive up his beloved North - but to his beloved brother Rickon, so no cause for sadness there, and ascend the Iron Throne out of duty.

[Bushido]

The most forward moment is made by the raven "Jon Snow.King" (ADwD)

Jon thinks that's queer,since the raven hasn't done it before.

[Eir]

too bad Joffrey didn't find out, it would have been sweet.

It would be even sweeter if Cersei found out (provided that she can't do any harm of course). She thought that she had completely outmanoeuvered Ned, and low and behold, honest, hapless Ned's been safeguarding the greatest secret of them all. I hope she has a chance to let that wash over her. Varys and Littlefinger too.

[Winterfellian]

This might not count, but I always felt Davos words to Stannis in ASOS are ominous of Jon:

I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

Unlike many other characters, Jon's story has never been about him trying to win any throne even if is to save the kingdom of other people that he might perceive as enemies (like Robb fighting for the kingdom of the North against the Lannisters or Dany trying to regain her father's throne from the usurper's dogs) but of saving the kingdom, even if it never gained him any honor or glory. This might foreshadow that Jon by being concerned on solely saving the realm, might indeed win the throne and become a King.

[Scipio Africanus]

The most forward moment is made by the raven "Jon Snow.King" (ADwD)

Jon thinks that's queer,since the raven hasn't done it before.

Both he and a lot of readers missed that the Raven called him king all the way back in CoK.

Jon cannot be King in the North and King on the Iron Throne both.

But he can be first one and then the other. So chronologically there will be two reveals in Jon's future. First that he is named in Robb's will - which will happen in the next book.

This will allow him to unite the North.

Then in the final book, the big reveal of the entire series will show Jon being Rhaegar's son. That will lessen his claim to Winterfell - at least symbolically - as he is not Eddard's son after all.

He will then out of his own volition guive up his beloved North - but to his beloved brother Rickon, so no cause for sadness there, and ascend the Iron Throne out of duty.

Yeah I can see this happin' as well, though I don't know how Martin will pull this off considering he killed off Jon and he's now likely warged into a big dog.