R+L=J v.39

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A Redeemed Hound, there are various Targaryens that didn't carry the family look. Jon's sister Rhaenys looked like her Dornish mother. So there's precedent for Rhaegar fathering a dark featured child.

And Lyanna was missing for a year+, doesn't fit the time frame for Robert to be the father.

Jon as Robert's son doesn't work. Jon was conceived a number of months into the war. At that time, contact between Robert and Lyanna would be pretty remarkable.

Voices of reason :bowdown:

[Greymoon]

Jon is not a Targ. Just the facts, Jack.

He has no physical or mental traits of a Targ at all. And you cannot assume anything like "what if he does have dragon dreams and never said anything?" because this is a book and it just doesn't work like that. It's a book and his POV chapters are all about Ghost and warging and those kind of dreams.

• He is a warg.
  
• His wolf looks like the Old Gods. All white with red eyes.
  
• He has wolf dreams. Not dragon or fire.
  
• He is not obsessed with dragons or fire.
  
• He looks like Ned.
  
• He is blinded by honor and what is right like Ned.
  
• He wants to be heir to Winterfell.
  
• He dreams of being seen as a Stark.
  
• He was made a legit Stark through Robb's letter.
  
• If he and Dany are to get together, GRRM will not make it so Dany is Jon's aunt. Kind of silly and GRRM has clearly shown that incest is not a good thing in these books.
  

IMO, N+A=J makes more sense to me. It would keep Ned's good name in check and set things up nicely for Jon too. I agree that there are obvious hints as to why R+L = J is a legit theory but there are just as many holes in that idea as there are in any other theory.

So...you are arguing Nature vs Nurture...? I'm a firm believer that mental traits are not inherited. The only 'mental' trait he could have inherited from the Targs is maddness, and that wouldn't qualify as a mental trait but a genetic defect. In my opinion, anyway.

Him being a warg and looking like Ned, does not mean he can't be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He'd still be half a Stark after all, just like Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are half Starks and half Tullys. So essentially, Jon has the same amount of Stark blood in his veins as his half-siblings do.

Also, I fully expect the Targ physical traits to be recessive, just like blond hair and blue eyes usually are. So his resemblance to Ned Stark would be expected.

It sometimes does seem Jon’s being set up with Dany...The only way I would find that agreeable, is if Jon and Dany hooked up before Jon finds out about his parentage. It would be sweet to have him freak out after he bedded his aunt, because he was raised with Northern beliefs and simply can't condone incest...

But either way, we don't know at all that he will end up with Dany, so this is not an argument either. Nor is the incest factor, as I can totally see GRRM taking a twisted sense of pleasure out of the above mentioned scenario, and basically torture Jon with shame.

[Greymoon]

I have a new one...

Rhaegar+Lyanna = Jon

Robert + Lyanna = Jon

Renly + Lyanna = Jon

Stannis + Lyanna = Jon... :bang:

Jokes aside, I like the idea of Arthur + Lyanna = Jon, with Rhaegar covering for Arthur, because he's technically taken vows... though I don't think that one works out either. And we do have one Stark/Dayne pairing already.

[Greymoon]

Oh, what about...

Rickard + Lyanna = Jon, and poor Lyanna wasn't kidnapped but fled from her father?

[Greymoon]

Arthur + Lyanna... come to think of it, could have met through Ned and/or Brandon and Ashara. Maybe, Ashara wasn't ever dishonored by a Stark, though she did hang out with them, possibly because her brother asked it of her, so he, Arthur, could have a valid excuse to be around Lyanna, without being too obvious about it.

Might be, since a lot of people saw Ashara around the Starks, it was assumed either Brandon or Ned, dishonored her without definite proof. People like to spread rumors, after all. Her true lover might have been someone else all together, and possibly more discreet, even.

Oh... Ashara + Rhaegar ? they would have had a good reason to be discreet, considering Elia and Ashara were good friends. And... it gives us a reason for Ashara killing herself. Imagine, she started the whole bloody business with Rhaegar but Arthur and Lyanna payed the price for it... all the rumors got mixed up, thus people believed Rhaegar stole Lyanna, when in truth Lyanna 'eloped' with Arthur.

And to make matters worse, the third dragon, Ashara's daughter, was still born.

From what we know about Lyanna, she could have been very interested in the Sword of the Morning. He'd fit with her wildness, plus she would be doing something totally forbidden with a sworn brother... And he's dornish, so he may have treated women with more respect than most Westerosis.

Also this would fit with Ned not really resenting Rhaegar. Though....it doesn't explain why the other KG are at the tower with Arthur. :dunno:

[Bushido]

Sapphire

Jon's sister Rhaenys..."

Aww,I see what you did there... :D

[A Redeemed Hound]

But Tyrion has been obsessed with dragons as far back as he can remember and he would have no reasoning for this, having been raised by Lannisters. So doesn't that nix the nature vs. nurture theory? Especially in a fantasy novel, I don't really believe nature vs. nurture really matters. It's facts based on what was presented to us, the readers.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Sapphire

Aww,I see what you did there... :D

I caught that too. Cute. :smug:

[Greymoon]

But Tyrion has been obsessed with dragons as far back as he can remember and he would have no reasoning for this, having been raised by Lannisters. So doesn't that nix the nature vs. nurture theory? Especially in a fantasy novel, I don't really believe nature vs. nurture really matters. It's facts based on what was presented to us, the readers.

But we don't have any proof that Tyrion has dragon blood. That's just speculation. He could be dreaming about dragons, like you and I dream about asoiaf, because it’s an obsession!

And I'm more of a supporter of Aerys + Joanna = Jaime and Cersei, anyway.

[A Redeemed Hound]

But we don't have any proof that Tyrion has dragon blood. That's just speculation. He could be dreaming about dragons, like you and I dream about asoiaf, because it’s an obsession!

And I'm more of a supporter of Aerys + Joanna = Jaime and Cersei, anyway.

To be quite honest, everything is speculation right now. Clues and hints are all we have. Saying Tyrion is a Targ is as solid as saying R+L=J at this point.

Maybe there were twins and one was brought back to Winterfell with Ned and the other was given to the fisherwoman mentioned in ADWD? Or maybe Jon Connington took the spawn of R+L? Or maybe Howland Reed has the offspring of R+L? Anything at this point is speculation.

[MtnLion]

To be quite honest, everything is speculation right now. Clues and hints are all we have. Saying Tyrion is a Targ is as solid as saying R+L=J at this point.

How specific does GRRM need to be to satisfy some people? Does he need to say exactly, "Jon was Rhaegar's and Lyanna's boy after they were married, and is thus a trueborn Targaryen"? I think that is what the Kingsguard say in their exchange with Ned at the tower, though perhaps a little too subtley for some to read. Those three who "were a wonder for the rest of the world" state that they are holding to their vow by standing and fighting against a rebel general. Here some want to explain that it must not be Jon and Lyanna in the tower, because they understand the importance of that scene. Lyanna and symbolically Jon are pretty well established to be present at the tower. The symbology of the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice confirms that it is Jon. Who else is at the Wall that the Kingsguard could have been defending, and how can they be linked to the blue flower? It is really so cut and dried, that it is difficult to dispute, even using the red herrings that have been provided.

[FittleLinger]

To be quite honest, everything is speculation right now. Clues and hints are all we have. Saying Tyrion is a Targ is as solid as saying R+L=J at this point.

Have you actually read both theories? My guess is you are being snark to prove a "whatever" point, because that's just ridicoulous. Believing what you want is your right, but those two cases are incomparable as amount as solidity of evidence.

[Greymoon]

To be quite honest, everything is speculation right now. Clues and hints are all we have. Saying Tyrion is a Targ is as solid as saying R+L=J at this point.

Sure it’s all speculation and I've turned my cloak just now actually, so I don't believe R+L= J either... but you can't use a speculation about Tyrion's birth as a clue and make it an argument to back your theory... no harm meant by that. It just doesn't make a strong argument if you base it on a speculation. Of course you wouldn't be the first to do it. ;)

[Greymoon]

Have you actually read both theories? My guess is you are being snark to prove a "whatever" point, because that's just ridicoulous. Believing what you want is your right, but those two cases are incomparable as amount as solidity of evidence.

never mind... misread that. lol

[A Redeemed Hound]

Sure it’s all speculation and I've turned my cloak just now actually, so I don't believe R+L= J either... but you can't use a speculation about Tyrion's birth as a clue and make it an argument to back your theory... no harm meant by that. It just doesn't make a strong argument if you base it on a speculation. Of course you wouldn't be the first to do it. ;)

What made you turn your cloak on R+L=J? Who do you think are Jon's parents? The one and only thing to me that I cannot argue against is the blue rose in the wall of ice. That's the one thing I can say is on the side of the R+L=J clan.

[Greymoon]

Oh, I still think Lyanna is Jon's mum, so the clue with the blue rose still fits.

And I know it might sound crackpot, but I managed to convince myself of Rhaegar + Ashara = Ashara's daughter, and Arthur + Lyanna = Jon. The theory needs refinement, since I can't really figure out why the KG would be at the ToJ with Arthur, but I like it!

The following possibilities could thus be explored:

• R+A kept their affair secret, thus when rumors of Brandon + Ashara, or Ned+ Ashara started flying around, it worked to their advantage, especially once Ashara got pregnant.
  
• At Harrenhall, Ashara hung around the Stark siblings (leading to said rumors), because Lyanna caught Arthur's eye, and Arthur needed an excuse to talk to her. With Ashara befriending the Starks, no one would blink an eye if Arthur was seen around the siblings since he's Ashara's brother. I'd imagine Lyanna would have stayed close to her brothers most of the time.
  
• Arthur and Lyanna have an affair, and sort of 'elope' together.
  
• Rhaegar being the good friend he is, and possibly because Arthur knows about the Prince and Ashara, decides to turn a blind eye on it. Eventually Rhaegar takes the blame for Lyanna's disappearance, to protect Arthur who's taken vows of celibacy and faces a death penalty.
  

By sum auf unlikely circumstances, Brandon arrives at Kingslanding, Aerys freaks, and the Rebellion starts. Also, somewhere along the line Ashara gives birth to Rhaegar's daughter, who is still born.

Ashara being so tightly involved in the whole disaster would explain her killing herself afterwards. As for Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, he might have done it out of numerous reasons. It could be that he didn't want to draw attention to Ashara, and decided to crown Arthur's love interest instead.

[Greymoon]

And to extrapolate on that... hiding away in a watchtower and being all lovey dovey, makes a bit more sense if its Arthur and Lyanna doing the hiding, rather than Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna and Arthur have no reason to believe their so called elopement would cause a rebellion, so its alright for them to be naïve and pretend the world outside doesn't exist for a moment...

[MtnLion]

Ah, how quickly we forget that Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the Crown of Love and Beauty, made of blue winter roses. He laid it in her lap. The hidden thorns were an injury to Ned. Symoblically we are talking about Rhaegar's and Lyanna's love and the result of that, Jon. Ned reflects that he had only one injury to his honor, and coincidentally the thorns of the winter roses in the crown.

It really is clear on ao many levels, and the three Kingsgurad that gave their lives to prove to us that Lyanna and Rhagar were married.

[Greymoon]

Ah, how quickly we forget that Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the Crown of Love and Beauty, made of blue winter roses. He laid it in her lap. The hidden thorns were an injury to Ned. Symoblically we are talking about Rhaegar's and Lyanna's love and the result of that, Jon. Ned reflects that he had only one injury to his honor, and coincidentally the thorns of the winter roses in the crown.

It really is clear on ao many levels, and the three Kingsgurad that gave their lives to prove to us that Lyanna and Rhagar were married.

Actually, I didn't forget it, and I did explain it away as Rhaegar not wanting to draw attention to Ashara(granted it might seem clumsy). Though one could also assume, Arthur whispered into Rhaegar's ear and asked him to do it for him. Or Rhaegar was simply aware of Arthur's interest.

Whilst I agree the blue roses carry a strong symbolic meaning, I don't see how Rhaegar not being Jon's father would affect that meaning at all. Winter roses are tied to Winterfell, as are Lyanna and any child she might have had. There's nothing to force a bridge between Rhaegar and winter roses, besides the crown he gave Lyanna. Like I've stated above, there's a number of motives one can come up with to explain Rhaegar's gesture.

[MtnLion]

Actually, I didn't forget it, and I did explain it away as Rhaegar not wanting to draw attention to Ashara(granted it might seem clumsy). Though one could also assume, Arthur whispered into Rhaegar's ear and asked him to do it for him. Or Rhaegar was simply aware of Arthur's interest.

Whilst I agree the blue roses carry a strong symbolic meaning, I don't see how Rhaegar not being Jon's father would affect that meaning at all. Winter roses are tied to Winterfell, as are Lyanna and any child she might have had. There's nothing to force a bridge between Rhaegar and winter roses, besides the crown he gave Lyanna. Like I've stated above, there's a number of motives one can come up with to explain Rhaegar's gesture.

But, there is only one motive for the Kingsguard to give their lives defending the tower.