R+L=J v.39

[dragontamer]

For me the liekly scenerio is this. After the Tourney RT and Lyanna probably had an affair for about a year, she got pregnant. They ran off together, not thinking it would cause a war, probably just to avoid the initial anger. The made king then does what he does. I am sure this train of thought has been well traveled on this site.

Now trying to figure out where they ran from. It could not have been Winterfell. Ravens would have been sent out the north, riverlands, twins, white Harbor, the Vale all alerted. A good horse will get you about 50 miles a day if your lucky before you really start hurting him. And you have to go 2500 miles south, food, shelter, new horses, all while ravens are taking messages to everyone to be looking for you. Not possible ,and to not be seen or found? Now way, he took her and he had to quick, and avoid as many people as possible. Her most likely location is the port city of Gulltown in the Vale. Gulltown was loyal to the crown and closed off the from Jon Arryn. That would block pursuit. She probably came down from White Harbor to go visit her Ned and maybe Robert or at least it would have been her excuse. RT could have had a ship in Gulltown waiting for them. She sails off with RT and her personal guard sends the word out. Brandon rides to kings landing assuming that is where RT sailed for. Instead he sails past and heads for Starfall, it's the long summer, calm seas, the ship would be shelter and well stocked. Lyanna and RT get to Starfall, that's where she has Jon and Wylla is the nurse. RT may have even been their when he was born.

Since you assume that Lyanna’s starting point is White Harbor I presume that you imply that Lyanna was at Winterfell, or close enough, for that whole year you suggest that she was having the affair with Rhaegar. So somehow Rhaegar managed to meet with her for a whole year under her father’s nose and got her with child? And then they ran? To match the timeline Jon has to be conceived a couple of months after the start of the war not before.

If I get it right you suggest also that she was headed towards Gulltown because the city was closed to the rebels. Gulltown was also a city under siege, is this a good choice in your opinion? I don’t think it would be that easy to come and go. Keep in mind that Gulltown was closed only after Aerys had captured Brandon and his party, had called for Rickard and the rest, they had travelled from the North to KL and Aerys had called for Robert’s and Eddard’s heads. Only then Jon Arryn raised his banners. Where were Lyanna and Rhaegar all this time if not together and far away already?

The war is going badly RT leaves his 3 closest men with Lyanna and sails for Kings Landing. RT marches to war. Lyanna who could have been a couple of months removed from delivery gets word of RT's death and the fall of kings landing decides to ride to the red keep. Leaving Starfall would help protect it from Roberts anger and leaving Jon behind would keep him safe and hidden. She knows they will come for her. So she puts distance between herself and Jon. Ned would have found out about Starfall at KL, he could have looked for the ship and his captain and asked where they took Lyanna too. Now he knows but first he has to lift the siege of storms end. Which takes about an hour, not including riding time. So after that Ned takes a small group of trusted men and heads to Starfall. He may not have wanted to take a large because he did not want Lord Dayne to assmue he was coming to attack. Only a small group going to talk to Lord Dayne and get his sister.

If she knew they would come for her then she ought to stay at Starfall and send Jon away not the other way. Also if Jon was born at Starfall his birth couldn't be kept a secret from so many.

My only problem with all this is all of Neds kids are Wargs just like Jon. I have no comparison to make with the other Starks children because there are none. Plus the six pups, for six Starks all of whom are neds kids. It leaves that big chance that he is Neds kid. Oh well.

Bloodraven is a warg and he is half Targaryen too. No problem there. If there is something weird about it, that's that only 1 in 1000 is born a warg , so it's quiet odd that all 6 of them are more or less gifted wargs.

[Greymoon]

Independently from all other topics here discussed... But this is quite an important question. Do we even know Rhaegar was crown prince?

He's the eldest... but that doesn't mean Aerys wanted him as a successor. Or that Aerys didn't change his mind at some point in time after the tournament or during the war...? And no, I'm not trying to prove another point, this is a genuine question. I'm just not certain we know for sure...

P.S.: I’m still not convinced that in the absence of an able heir, there wouldn’t have been a council to name one. And I’m not convinced the KG have that kind of authority, but I’ll let it go, I suppose.

[Jon Icefyre]

its an interesting theory but catelyn says a number of times that jon looks the most like ned stark in fact i think this i a big part of the reason she hates jon so much because he is more like his father than any of his true born sons..so to me the R+L=J things ends right there

Well if you actually pay attention to the descriptions of Jon and his other siblings you would see that all of Ned's kids except for Jon and Arya look like Cat. But it is also stated numerous times that Jon and Arya strongly resemble each other. In fact they look so much alike that at one point Sansa thought Arya was also a bastard (like Jon) until Cat told her otherwise. My point with all this is, it's been stated in the series by Ned Stark himself that Arya strongly resembles Lyanna. So if Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna........Do you see the connection yet? lol Of course if all of Cat's son's got her tully features and Jon got his mother's(Lyanna) stark features Jon would look a lot more like Ned when comparing him to Robb, Bran, and Rickon who all have Cat's Tully hair and eyes.

[Jon Icefyre]

Independently from all other topics here discussed... But this is quite an important question. Do we even know Rhaegar was crown prince?

He's the eldest... but that doesn't mean Aerys wanted him as a successor. Or that Aerys didn't change his mind at some point in time after the tournament or during the war...? And no, I'm not trying to prove another point, this is a genuine question. I'm just not certain we know for sure...

P.S.: I’m still not convinced that in the absence of an able heir, there wouldn’t have been a council to name one. And I’m not convinced the KG have that kind of authority, but I’ll let it go, I suppose.

Yes he was the Crown prince and it was well known by everyone in the realm and it's stated that he was the crown prince multiple times in the series. Hell when Ser Barristan is describing Rhaegar to Dany he still refers to Rhaegar as "The Prince of Dragonstone" even though he's been dead for years. So ya he died as the crown prince.

[Greymoon]

Yes he was the Crown prince and it was well known by everyone in the realm and it's stated that he was the crown prince multiple times in the series. Hell when Ser Barristan is describing Rhaegar to Dany he still refers to Rhaegar as "The Prince of Dragonstone" even though he's been dead for years. So ya he died as the crown prince.

Mad King does what Mad King wants. Everyone knowing Rhaegar was at some point in time crown prince or next in line for the Iron Throne, doesn't mean it was still true by the end of the war. There was resentment between father and son, and it’s not at all a stretch to think Aerys might have decided, after Rhaegar so royally screwed his duties, to name Viserys his heir. Just saying.

[dragontamer]

Mad King does what Mad King wants. Everyone knowing Rhaegar was at some point in time crown prince or next in line for the Iron Throne, doesn't mean it was still true by the end of the war. There was resentment between father and son, and it’s not at all a stretch to think Aerys might have decided, after Rhaegar so royally screwed his duties, to name Viserys his heir. Just saying.

By the end of the war it didn't matter anyway since the Targaryens had lost and there was a new dynasty, the Baratheons. Even if Aerys intended to name Viserys his heir I assume we will never know since there is absolutely no hint of this and no one knew at the time, otherwise I believe Jaime as a KG's member or the small council would know about it.

[Nina]

My only problem with all this is all of Neds kids are Wargs just like Jon. I have no comparison to make with the other Starks children because there are none. Plus the six pups, for six Starks all of whom are neds kids. It leaves that big chance that he is Neds kid. Oh well.

GRRM said that, this generation of Starks are wargs. But didn't explain why. IMO I think they are wargs because they are descendants of the First Men and the birth of Dany's dragons was the trigger for this. As we know the birth of dragons brought back the magic to the world. And about six puppies, don't forget that Ghost was separated from the others, almost went unnoticed, this is a subtle clue.

[Budj]

GRRM said that, this generation of Starks are wargs. But didn't explain why. IMO I think they are wargs because they are descendants of the First Men and the birth of Dany's dragons was the trigger for this. As we know the birth of dragons brought back the magic to the world.

I don't think we know this. And you are born as a warg it doesn't just happen later in life. There may be a correlation to magic coming back and wargs, but I think it has more to do with the old gods choosing their champions.

[Roza Ahai]

To the first I would say... Ashara was 'dishonored' in the eyes of Barristan the Bold and other Westerosis. Ashara being dornish might not have considered herself dishonored.

Arthur wouldn't have taken offence if Ashara was fine with it. Does Doran take offense on behalf of his daughter?

Rhaegar is not dornish, it would be dishonor for him to dishonor lady in the eyes of Westerosi.

Ashara was a waiting lady of Ellia. During a sack Ashara was n't with Ellia as a waiting lady. We know that she commited suicide in Starfall. So, Ashara didn't stay with Ellia probably because she was pregnant. If Ashara thought it is OK to be dishonored, she would stay with Ellia. Ellia is also dornish, she would allow her to give a birth in KL. If Ashara's child is Rhaegars, it is even better to keep both Ellia and Ashara under KG protection in KL. Aerys wouldn't be against it. Ashara's child is only a bastard.

To the second, Rhaegar did not visit brothels, but by all account he cheated on his wife, or at least he wasn't a one-woman man. That counts as infidelity in my eyes.

Targs are allowed to have 2 wives. Aegon I had two wives. It wasn't infidelity in the eyes of Westerosi.

[A Redeemed Hound]

What if there is no father? :dunce:

[Greymoon]

Anyway, I do have a number of questions. Why would Rhaegar help one of his kingsguard kidnap Lyanna? Why would he cover for him? Why would he give him free movement? "Cause they're buddies" doesn't really cut it for me. This dude has a damn job. He works for Rhaegar. It makes much more sense to pair Lyanna with the prince. A+L doesn't answer the original important questions about the situation; it just raises new ones.

Well...the theory goes as follows: Ashara and Rhaegar have an affair, and Lyanna and Arthur have one. Rhaegar and Arthur both having need for secrecy, would give them ground for a common understanding: Arthur pretends he doesn't know anything about Ashara and Rhaegar pretends he doesn't know anything about Lyanna. The prince could send Arthur on errands giving him a convenient excuse to visit Lyanna after the tournament, and no one would think to question Rhaegar's order to a member of the KG. The errands could even be true ones, but convenient for Arthur in a way that it allows him to travel.

It’s not so much about Rhaegar protecting Arthur but more about two good friends protecting each other’s back and sharing a mutal understanding. I agree that the theory does need refinement.

But imagine that the rumors of Lyanna's disappearance spread and because it was Rhaegar who gave her the crown of Love and Beauty, it was assumed Rhaegar had all and everything to do with it. Whilst the rumors start flying around, Arthur and Lyanna are innocently spending some nice time at the ToJ. A place also known to Rhaegar.

When the Prince gets wind of the rumor, he seeks Arthur out to possibly do damage control, or confront his friend. So Rhaegar leaves Kingslanding and goes to the ToJ as well. By the time Rhaegar finds Arthur, the Mad King could already have had Brandon and Rickard killed, and it would then become essential to protect Lyanna from the King.

With the rebellion starting, Rhaegar might never have disproved the rumors. Either because he didn’t have the time, either because he believed it of little importance since damage had already been done. Also, if he expected to survive, he might have decided he’d come clean once the war was won. One could take this one step further and say Rhaegar lied (or let the KG assume what they wanted) once the other KG turned up at the ToJ. Reasons for this could be to protect Arthur, or because that's the most convenient way to make sure Aerys doesn't get hold of Lyanna.

And Rhaegar wouldn't have disproved the rumors about Ashara and a Stark either, because that draws suspicion away from him having fathered a child on Ashara. The same goes with the assumption that he stole Lyanna. In letting people assume that he's also protecting his own love interest.

Speaking in favor of this theory, is that it seems kind of out of character for Rhaegar to steal Lyanna away, or to even risk elopement. Such a venture was sure to bring trouble with it, and it would be highly irresponsible for the crown prince to do that. Also, it seems stupid for the prince to hide away in a tower. That's certainly not well thought off. There's no reason for Arthur to have the same worries.

(Hell, Arthur and Lyanna could even have planned all along to flee to Braavos and live a life of adventure. Or be brigands on the Kingsroad, or pirates. Wouldn't that fit Lyanna's character description?? )

Plus, Ashara and Rhaegar had enough time together at Kingslanding to get to know each other very well, whilst the tournament lasted only a week or two at the most. Granted, we don't have hints and clues to support it, but, why not? Also Ashara being the one Rhaegar had an affair with, would give her good reasons to feel guilty and wretched by the end of the war. Especially say, if the third dragon was still born.

We've had instances of sworn brothers taking wives or having affairs. Jaime, Jon and even Mance come to mind. Also, we've had instances of men pretending to be father to a child they didn't beget, to protect the mother or the babe. Ned and Samwell Tarly.

Sam makes a good example, since Sam even thinks his dad might be proud if he managed to get a wilding girl with child, whilst there is no reason for Lord Tarly to ever take Gilly in, if he believes her babe to have been born of incest.

Of course, we have also instances of VIPs doing something utterly stupid and losing a war for a woman's love. Robb.

Either way, from your post, it seemed you hadn't followed that theory in its entirety, I thought I'd elaborate for you. Though I don't expect any one to agree with me, I suppose.

[Greymoon]

Targs are allowed to have 2 wives. Aegon I had two wives. It wasn't infidelity in the eyes of Westerosi.

Aegon I had two wives because no one dared tell him no. He'd conquered the seven kingdoms with dragons. I don't think anyone at that point would dare even look at him crossly, no less say "hey, wait a minute; we don't practice polygamy in westeros!"

I think Targaryen polygamy was only begrudgingly accepted by the Westerosis because there was nothing to be done against the King or the power of the Targaryens. I don't think the Westerosis though it legitimate. We don't know, granted.

But, why would having two women not be conceived as infidelity? Making it legal doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar would have been warming two different beds and doing it behind Elia's back. Or do you think they talked about it first and Rhaegar told her : "hon, I have this wonderful idea, I'll just go and elope with Lyanna Stark"

If Elia was in on the whole plan, I can't imagine her not telling Rhaegar how stupid he's being.

And what I meant with infidelity, mostly, is the fact he would have two women. Regardless of whether he has the right to it or not, if Lyanna didn't like the idea of sharing her man, I can't see her agreeing to become a second wife.

[GillyTarly]

What if there is no father? :dunce:

There is a father and mother or Jon wouldn't be here.

[Budj]

There is a father and mother or Jon wouldn't be here.

Immaculate Conception.

Or the beginning of a bad anime movie where a tree forces itself on Lyanna...

[MtnLion]

Why do they fight Ned? follows up on the first, they obey orders. But, even without a direct order, a fight can easily escalate or be provoked, by simple fear. Will the other kill me, if I don't kill him first? When the KG and Ned face up, it's only a matter of who strikes first, I think.

Let's examine this a little more reslistically. One must get the Kingsguard perspective to understand their words, and one must have Ned's perspective to understand his words.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned has noticed that the three Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander, were missing fromt he battlefield. Is it possible that following leads to their location led him to the tower? It is certainly one of the possibilities. Hightower had fetched Rhaegar before the Trident, and had obviously been ordered to return. Rhaegar does not want the location to become common knowledge, and with Hightower in the city it was a possibility that it would leak.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

No humility here, Whent believes that their presence at the Trident would have turned the battle. Indeed these are storied knights, and need no false humility. An army against these three may not fare very well.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned wonders where they were, when Aerys was killed. The app let it slip that Whent and Dayne were with Rhaegar when they met up with Lyanna. Does ned know this, as well? It seems that way, and Ned has been pursuing Kingsguard throughout the war, as a lead on his sister. Perhaps specifically Dayne and Whent were priority targets for Ned's search.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Hightower confirms that he was not anywhere near King's Landing when it fell. This seems to be a clue that Rhaegar did send him back to the tower immediately after arriving at King's Landing. Rhaegar then has three Kingsguard, and ensures that his wife and child have three Kingsguard, and his other wife and children are safe and protected by a Kingsguard (Jaime) in King's Landing.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

The war is over (Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, the children have been murdered) I will accept your surrender. Let's begin a discussion of terms.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

We will not surrender, and will not discuss any terms for surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

There are some members of the previous dynasty on Dragonstone. Since you don't want to surrender, would you like to discuss a way to join them, and fulfill your obligations to them? We really don't need to have a fight, here.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Note that they point out that who Ned thinks is the heir has no Kingsguard. Note that they cite their vow as the reason for the fight. The Kingsguard has a single vow, "Protect and defend the king," as Jaime says. These three call Jaime their "false brother" because he broke his vow and slew the king, mad as he was. There is only one reason for this fight to begin, to protect and defend the king. All three of these most honorable, "a shining example for the rest of the world", knights have agreede that they are defnding the heir to the throne, that Jon (as yet unnamed) is a legitmate Targaryen heir. They have decided to die for him, if need be, as Brienne says. And Ned knows that the outcome was a loss for Westeros, and the world, of some truly wondrous knights.

[GillyTarly]

Immaculate Conception.

Or the beginning of a bad anime movie where a tree forces itself on Lyanna...

Okay....that's strange.

I believe we have to start from the timeline that G.R.R.M gave us. Then work our way down through the theory.

[MtnLion]

Aegon I had two wives because no one dared tell him no. He'd conquered the seven kingdoms with dragons. I don't think anyone at that point would dare even look at him crossly, no less say "hey, wait a minute; we don't practice polygamy in westeros!"

I think Targaryen polygamy was only begrudgingly accepted by the Westerosis because there was nothing to be done against the King or the power of the Targaryens. I don't think the Westerosis though it legitimate. We don't know, granted.

But, why would having two women not be conceived as infidelity? Making it legal doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar would have been warming two different beds and doing it behind Elia's back. Or do you think they talked about it first and Rhaegar told her : "hon, I have this wonderful idea, I'll just go and elope with Lyanna Stark"

If Elia was in on the whole plan, I can't imagine her not telling Rhaegar how stupid he's being.

And what I meant with infidelity, mostly, is the fact he would have two women. Regardless of whether he has the right to it or not, if Lyanna didn't like the idea of sharing her man, I can't see her agreeing to become a second wife.

Perhaps you aren't looking at things through Elia's eyes. Rhaegar and Elia had an arranged marriage, and Barristan mentions that Rhaegar was fond of Elia. Elia was sickly, and the last birth almost killed her. The maesters insisted that she not have another pregnancy, and she had to convey that tidbit to Rhaegar, "you can't share my bed anymore." Rhaegar says, "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads." Isn't it conceivable that Elia knew about the prophecy, as well? Rhaegar discusses the prophecy, and Elia's ianbility with Lyanna, and somehow convinces Lyanna to marry him. He is not sharing two beds, he has just the one, and he married for love. I think he is going to be faithful, so I see no reson for Lyanna to not accept, and Elia is all for him fulfilling the prophecy, because if the prophecy is not fulfilled there is no hope for men.

[GillyTarly]

*Crackpot Theory*

What if Rhaegar laid his eyes on Lyanna at the TOH? That night, he went to meet up with Lyanna. They concieved Jon there. It's crackpot theory.

[Erudain]

What if there is no father? :dunce:

and he was conceived by midichlorians?

[Erudain]

its an interesting theory but catelyn says a number of times that jon looks the most like ned stark in fact i think this i a big part of the reason she hates jon so much because he is more like his father than any of his true born sons..so to me the R+L=J things ends right there

So?...Arya looks like Lyanna and we know she is not her daugther.

Jon can look like Ned because they both come from the same DNA pool, the same way cousins can resemble each other or nieces resemble with their aunts/uncles because they all decend from the same father/grandfather.