R+L=J v.39

[pobeb]

-The prince who was promised has the song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)

-The 3 KGs were at the ToJ to protect Jon because he is the King

-Ned's promise to Lyanna is to protect Jon from Robert's wrath

-Moromont's raven (warged by Bloodraven) repeatedly calls Jon "King" (and I'd say Bloodraven knows what the score is)

-Varamyr comments that warging into Ghost would be "a second life worthy of a king"

-The blue rose (Lyanna's symbol) blossoming from the Wall in Dany's vision at the House of the Undying

-Jon's "death" in relation to the AA prophecy (although I think the AA prophecy was misinterpreted - I actually think AA is Dany, TPTWP is Jon, and the Last Hero is Bran - The 3 Heads - Dany is Fire, Bran is Ice, and Jon is both; the key that links the two and brings about peace)

-Ned would never cheat on Catelyn, and to think otherwise is just silly. The story does everything to establish Ned's personal honor as unbreakable, and for those who missed it... I guess you probably won't agree or understand the points I made, so sorry for wasting your time.

[MtnLion]

So, since you claim I'm ignoring the vow and electing another interpretation by stating, namely, that by extension of the same vows, the KG follow the orders of their King...does it mean you think, the Kingsguard can chose to ignore a direct order of the King? That's doubtful.

Jaime makes it pretty plain that they follow the king's orders when it does not jeopardize the king's rule. If the Kingsguard has a question about following an order from the king, Jaime tells them to ask him, first. So, yes, protecting and defending the king come before following orders.

[Sasha Steelsong]

sorry - didn't realize i had offended so many people with my ignorance.

No offense taken. It is just one of those things that I think is sort of funny that people get wrong a lot, so I always appreciate when someone knows the right answer.

[Dragonfish]

sorry - didn't realize i had offended so many people with my ignorance.

If it makes you feel any better, I used to think the same as you, until my parents (who both have graduate-level educations in theology) gave me a hearty correction.

[Greymoon]

Rhaegar and Lyanna met with each other off and on until he couldn't handle being away from her. He acted on male instinct too.

Hey, what's up with the gender equality/neutrality and such on these forums? Is there such a thing as a male instinct? I'm being prickly and difficult I suppose, but really... I've been called a HE, Rhaegar has a MALE instinct, and genes are passed down through FATHERS and GRANDFATHERS... ?

No offense meant here, but do be aware that such talks can sound misogynic, or on some instances, reduce the XY of our species to lust driven bonobos. Which I don't think they are... are you?

Also, about Elia. I’ve been told to try and understand the whole thing from her perspective. Her perspective is that of a sickly woman, bed ridden most of the time, with two young children. Granted their marriage was arranged and maybe she didn’t love Rhaegar either. Granted, also, she's dornish, and thus its assumed she had an open mind. Still, at the very least his going off with Lyanna seems awfully egocentric.

No matter his arguments, I can’t imagine Elia would be fine with it unless she had the same rights he did, namely to have a paramour (we've seen how strongly Arianna defends her rights as a woman, after all). If they had an open marriage, why not. Though, she’d still be ill and bed ridden with two young children. Not much possibility here to go out in the world and meet a handsome lad.

[GillyTarly]

I didn't mean it to be offensive.

[Budj]

If it makes you feel any better, I used to think the same as you, until my parents (who both have graduate-level educations in theology) gave me a hearty correction.

A little better...but jesus (pun intended) I hate posting misinformation on a public forum :blushing:

snipped for length

It is actually thrown around here a lot that Elia did have a paramour which made her ok with the Lyanna situation. I couldn't help but read into the water gardens back story and wonder if Elia had a childhood sweetheart outside of her political marriage.

Edit: 1 post shy of 1k....better think real hard on the milestone post :P

[Nelapsi]

^ and all this still doesn't justify how R could have married L, making Jon legit.

[The guy from the Vale]

What do you mean by justify? The legal method by which Rhaegar could do so - Targaryen polygamy - has been pointed out repeatedly.

As for those saying polygamy wasn't legal any longer under Aerys, I have a simple question: Why was incest still allowed, then? We have no indication either was abolished, and the incest, at least, was still practiced by Rhaegar's parents. All the reasons why polygamy would be unacceptable are also reasons for incest to be unacceptable, but noone complained about Aerys and Rhaella being married, as far as we know.

[Nina]

Why doesn't it make sense for them to hide out at the ToJ? With as little detail as we have we can't really use that to explain away what we are currently led to believe with the situation. We at least know they were there when Hightower came to retrieve Rhaegar at which point Lyanna was probably very pregnant.

I'm sorry, but I lost the thread. How do we know Hightower came to retrieve Rhaegar in TOJ to return to King's Land? I'm not sure if I understood right, English isn't my first language so ...

[Greymoon]

I didn't mean it to be offensive.

I didn't think you did, just wanted to point it out. I'm sorry.

these things just get to me sometimes!

[Budj]

I'm sorry, but I lost the thread. How do we know Hightower came to retrieve Rhaegar in TOJ to return to King's Land? I'm not sure if I understood right, English isn't my first language so ...

Unfortunately I read it in another post in one of these threads. Hoping that person chimes in here..haha...sorry I couldn't cite it for you.

[Nina]

Unfortunately I read it in another post in one of these threads. Hoping that person chimes in here..haha...sorry I couldn't cite it for you.

Good. I didn't miss anything while reading books? Am I right?

[Budj]

I believe it was mentioned in the books at some point. It is also stated in the Wiki that Hightower was sent to retrieve Rheagar from the ToJ. Next time my nook is charged up I'll do a key word search. I'm guessing it would be in an Eddard or Jaime chapter.

[Greymoon]

What do you mean by justify? The legal method by which Rhaegar could do so - Targaryen polygamy - has been pointed out repeatedly.

As for those saying polygamy wasn't legal any longer under Aerys, I have a simple question: Why was incest still allowed, then? We have no indication either was abolished, and the incest, at least, was still practiced by Rhaegar's parents. All the reasons why polygamy would be unacceptable are also reasons for incest to be unacceptable, but noone complained about Aerys and Rhaella being married, as far as we know.

You know, more than polygamy, I think, setting Elia aside would have presented the best solution for both of them. We haven't seen any instances of that in Westeros, but why not? It's been done as early as the early middle ages in Europe.

No matter what we think about Elia and the understanding between spouses...do you think someone like Aerys would ever tolerate his daughter in law having an affair?

Her duty as the Prince's wife is to bear heirs to the throne. Aerys would have followed a zero-tolerance policy concerning her, and if he just suspected she might have an illicit affair... well. Elia would burn, probably.

Elia being sickly and unable to carry another child, would be ground enough to set her aside. It's harsh and unforgiving, but I could see Elia agreeing to that, at least if it meant she'd have her freedom back in return. She’s ill and I imagine she’d be weary of the King and the court. And she’s stuck in a love less marriage. Plus, life as Doran’s sister couldn’t have been that awful. Much better than at Kingslanding, in any case.

So…Why suddenly take up an old practice when Rhaegar has a legitimate ground to dissolve his marriage?

Why wouldn’t Elia agree to pack her bags, say bye bye Rhaegar and return to dorne? The only issue here would be her children, but visiting hours could be arranged with their papa. Further, this might not have been a true issue since we’ve seen how common it is to send a child to be fostered.

Rhaegar deciding the best course of action is to dissolve his first marriage, whilst maintaining his claim on Rhaenys and Aegon could work. Though, if that was the original plan, he couldn’t have dissolved the marriage during the war in fear of losing Dornes allegiance.

Just a thought.

[Jon Icefyre]

Mad King does what Mad King wants. Everyone knowing Rhaegar was at some point in time crown prince or next in line for the Iron Throne, doesn't mean it was still true by the end of the war. There was resentment between father and son, and it’s not at all a stretch to think Aerys might have decided, after Rhaegar so royally screwed his duties, to name Viserys his heir. Just saying.

Once again there is no evidence of any such plan by all accounts everyone in the realm viewed Rhaegar as the Crown Prince and Aery's never made any move that would even suggest he planned to disinherit Rhaegar. In fact i'd say he did the complete opposite by summoning Rhaegar to KL to lead the royal army in the battle of the trident. Why would you want someone your about to disinherit to lead your army in the deciding battle of the war, to which if he wins he will recieve and overwelming amount of favor(on top of the favor Rhaegar already had) from the royal loyalists as the commander who ended the rebellion? Rhaegar went into that battle as the crown prince case closed. To say that it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks and that Aery's could have been planning it in his head even though there's nothin to suggest he was is honestly bs. Once again your makin stuff up in your head to further help your own argument. Anyone can say well this character could have been thinking this or that but without evidence to suppport the claim it's just bs.

[GillyTarly]

You know, more than polygamy, I think, setting Elia aside would have presented the best solution for both of them. We haven't seen any instances of that in Westeros, but why not? It's been done as early as the early middle ages in Europe.

No matter what we think about Elia and the understanding between spouses...do you think someone like Aerys would ever tolerate his daughter in law having an affair?

Her duty as the Prince's wife is to bear heirs to the throne. Aerys would have followed a zero-tolerance policy concerning her, and if he just suspected she might have an illicit affair... well. Elia would burn, probably.

Elia being sickly and unable to carry another child, would be ground enough to set her aside. It's harsh and unforgiving, but I could see Elia agreeing to that, at least if it meant she'd have her freedom back in return. She’s ill and I imagine she’d be weary of the King and the court. And she’s stuck in a love less marriage. Plus, life as Doran’s sister couldn’t have been that awful. Much better than at Kingslanding, in any case.

So…Why suddenly take up an old practice when Rhaegar has a legitimate ground to dissolve his marriage?

Why wouldn’t Elia agree to pack her bags, say bye bye Rhaegar and return to dorne? The only issue here would be her children, but visiting hours could be arranged with their papa. Further, this might not have been a true issue since we’ve seen how common it is to send a child to be fostered.

Rhaegar deciding the best course of action is to dissolve his first marriage, whilst maintaining his claim on Rhaenys and Aegon could work. Though, if that was the original plan, he couldn’t have dissolved the marriage during the war in fear of losing Dornes allegiance.

Just a thought.

Elia was unhappy in the marriage. It was an arrange marriage between Martells and Targs. During the middle ages, an arranged marriage prevent war between nations. Rhaegar was worried if he left Elia. Dorne would be seiging KL. Elia was ill and couldn't bare anymore heirs for Rhaegar. She could have made an agreement that Rhaegar can take another wife (Lyanna if they were married at the time) thus having more children.

[Greymoon]

Once again there is no evidence of any such plan by all accounts accounts everyone in the realm viewed Rhaegar as the Crown Prince and Aery's never made any move that would even suggest he planned to disinherit Rhaegar. In fact i'd say he did the complete opposite by summoning Rhaegar to KL to lead the royal army in the battle of the trident. Why would you want someone your about to disinherit to lead your army in the deciding battle of the war, to which if he wins he will recieve and overwelming amount of favor(on top of the favor Rhaegar already had) from the royal loyalists as the commander who ended the rebellion? Rhaegar went into that battle as the crown prince case closed. To say that it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks and that Aery's could have been planning it in his head even though there's nothin to suggest he was is honestly bs. Once again your makin stuff up in your head to further help your own argument. Anyone can say well this character could have been thinking this or that but without evidence to suppport the claim it's just bs.

I just like pointing things out, there's no harm it in. And never did I say 'it doesn't matter' just, that Aerys could well have done it. It wouln't have mattered anyway, since the war was lost and it has little if at all, relevance to this discussion. There's no need for bs or to sound insulting, even.

[Jon Icefyre]

I just like pointing things out, there's no harm it in. And never did I say 'it doesn't matter' just, that Aerys could well have done it. It wouln't have mattered anyway, since the war was lost and it has little if at all, relevance to this discussion. There's no need for bs or to sound insulting, even.

There's no point in trying to point out a characters thoughts in doing something as bold as disinheriting his son when there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest these thoughts.

[GillyTarly]

There's no point in trying to point out a characters thoughts in doing something as bold as disinheriting his son when there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest these thoughts.

:agree: