R+L=J v.39

[Ser Leftwich]

Rhaegar and Lyanna met with each other off and on until he couldn't handle being away from her. He acted on male instinct too.

Do you have a scenario by which Lyanna and Rhaegar were able to spend time together? There are several possible, just curious if you have a specific one in mind.

[MtnLion]

There's no point in trying to point out a characters thoughts in doing something as bold as disinheriting his son when there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest these thoughts.

:agree:

[GillyTarly]

Do you have a scenario by which Lyanna and Rhaegar were able to spend time together? There are several possible, just curious if you have a specific one in mind.

At night during the ToH.

[Ser Leftwich]

At night during the ToH.

So only during the ToH, not after?

[MtnLion]

I wish there was a like button for this. :)

Rhaegar and Lyanna met with each other off and on until he couldn't handle being away from her. He acted on male instinct too.

Sorry, I don't see any support for this. As I read the timeline, Rhaegar and Lyanna may have developed an attraction to each other at the Tourney at Harrenhal. But we have the prince in King's Landing during the following year of winter, and surely Lyanna is going to be in Winterfell when winter comes after the false spring. We know that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and she delivers before or at the same time as Elia delivers Aegon. That time, when Aegon is delivered, is ~12 months before the sack of King's Landing. I think that after Aegon is delivered, and Rhaegar is told that Elia cannot have any further children, Rhaegar decides to pursue Lyanna in earnest.

[The guy from the Vale]

It's not entirely clear where Lyanna was after the ToH. Winterfell is easily possible, but other places (Harrenhal, most of the time) have been proposed.

[MtnLion]

It's not entirely clear where Lyanna was after the ToH. Winterfell is easily possible, but other places (Harrenhal, most of the time) have been proposed.

By those who don't have a handle on the timeline, I can believe. Remember that Lyanna is going to be betrothed to Robert, and she is quite young. I don't think that Rickard is going to be too careless with her, and insist that she stay in the north where he had dominion, when not in the company of her older brothers.

[corbon]

Hightower had fetched Rhaegar before the Trident, and had obviously been ordered to return. Rhaegar does not want the location to become common knowledge, and with Hightower in the city it was a possibility that it would leak.

...

Hightower confirms that he was not anywhere near King's Landing when it fell. This seems to be a clue that Rhaegar did send him back to the tower immediately after arriving at King's Landing.

There is no evidence or requirement that Hightower returned to KL after finding Rhaegar.

You know, more than polygamy, I think, setting Elia aside would have presented the best solution for both of them. We haven't seen any instances of that in Westeros, but why not? It's been done as early as the early middle ages in Europe.

No matter what we think about Elia and the understanding between spouses...do you think someone like Aerys would ever tolerate his daughter in law having an affair?

...

Just a thought.

But did you think it through?

Why on earth 'set aside' Elia, when the legal possibiiity of a polygamous second marraige exists? The polygamous marriage is the perfect solution. Nobody loses anything, everybody wins (except Robert Baratheon).

Why would Aerys tolerate having Elia set aside. He choose elia for Rhaegar, setting her aside weakens both his authority and ties with Dorne.

Sorry, I don't see any support for this. As I read the timeline, Rhaegar and Lyanna may have developed an attraction to each other at the Tourney at Harrenhal. But we have the prince in King's Landing during the following year of winter, and surely Lyanna is going to be in Winterfell when winter comes after the false spring.

There is no evidence she went back, and no good reason to go back. She is about to become a great Lady of the south, and needs to spend time in the south becoming acquainted with southern customs and making those connections and relationships that are such an important part of ruling in a feudal society.

And maybe also to have some of that northern 'wildness' trained out of her, as Cat hoped would happen for Arya.

I think it far more likely that she stayed in the south with a family of good name with a strong female presence, rather than travel all that way again twice in 2 years.

[Ser Leftwich]

By those who don't have a handle on the timeline, I can believe. Remember that Lyanna is going to be betrothed to Robert, and she is quite young. I don't think that Rickard is going to be too careless with her, and insist that she stay in the north where he had dominion, when not in the company of her older brothers.

Now for some crackpot. Ned and Lyanna visit KL after the ToH. Ned wants to get to know Ashara and Rickard wants Lyanna to learn some courtly manners, as a maid for Elia.

[Jon Icefyre]

Now for some crackpot. Ned and Lyanna visit KL after the ToH. Ned wants to get to know Ashara and Rickard wants Lyanna to learn some courtly manners, as a maid for Elia.

After the TOH Ned went back to the Vale with Robert and Jon Arryn.

[pobeb]

Less ignorant R+L=J counter arguments, more jon icefyre plz

ty

[Ser Leftwich]

After the TOH Ned went back to the Vale with Robert and Jon Arryn.

Ned is in the Vale ~12 months later, when Aerys calls for his head.

Do we know he went right back there after the ToH?

[Jon Icefyre]

Ned is in the Vale ~12 months later, when Aerys calls for his head.

Do we know he went right back there after the ToH?

No we don't we can only assume he did until we get evidence that suggest otherwise so I'll keep an open mind on the timeline gap for now lol

[Jon Icefyre]

Less ignorant R+L=J counter arguments, more jon icefyre plz

ty

Hahaha :cheers:

[MtnLion]

There is no evidence or requirement that Hightower returned to KL after finding Rhaegar.

There is the statement that Rhaegar always travels in the company of the Kingsguard, except while he is at Summerhall. Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar, one of the three must have accompanied Rhaegar back to King's Landing, and Rhaegar must have immediately sent him back. Just the most reasonable scenario is that it was Hightower, since he could report to Aerys.

[MtnLion]

Now for some crackpot. Ned and Lyanna visit KL after the ToH. Ned wants to get to know Ashara and Rickard wants Lyanna to learn some courtly manners, as a maid for Elia.

Yep, that is cracked pottery, there is absolutely nothing to suggest such a thing.

[MtnLion]

There is no evidence she went back, and no good reason to go back. She is about to become a great Lady of the south, and needs to spend time in the south becoming acquainted with southern customs and making those connections and relationships that are such an important part of ruling in a feudal society.

And maybe also to have some of that northern 'wildness' trained out of her, as Cat hoped would happen for Arya.

I think it far more likely that she stayed in the south with a family of good name with a strong female presence, rather than travel all that way again twice in 2 years.

No, there is no evidence about her whereabouts between Harrenhal and the tower. It does seem reasonable that everyone in the Stark family, except perhaps Ned, wintered at Winterfell. We do have a conversation between Lyanna and Ned with regards to Robert's betrothal, and we still don't have any solid information about when the betrothal was made. When the betrothals are announced we have Littlefinger challenging Brandon to a duel, and it works best if it is at the end of the winter. You can have before, if you like, but that messes with Littlefinger being in a position to observe Lyanna meeting up with Rhaegar and send a false message to Brandon.

[Greymoon]

But did you think it through?

Why on earth 'set aside' Elia, when the legal possibiiity of a polygamous second marraige exists? The polygamous marriage is the perfect solution. Nobody loses anything, everybody wins (except Robert Baratheon).

Why would Aerys tolerate having Elia set aside. He choose elia for Rhaegar, setting her aside weakens both his authority and ties with Dorne.

Did you read my post? I did point the obvious problem with dorne out, and again, its just a thought. The polygamy doesn't do it for me, sorry.

[Jon Icefyre]

Exactly right, and I will even go further. What I am about to say is from a merely human point of view, which in this case comes second (to of course not giving Jon to Robert's second in command). If I was Dayne or one of the other guys, it would be exaclty Ned's extreme loyalty and honour that could lead me to the conclusion that he might after all give the kid to Robert. If it was anyone else, then I might think, "Yeah, he won't just sentence his infant nephew to death", but Ned is just the kind of guy who could go to an extreme for the sake of his loyalty to Robert.

So it absolutely makes sense even from that point of view.

This is a really good point, I never even thought about it from that pov very interesting indeed my friend good stuff. :thumbsup:

[Sasha Steelsong]

Did you read my post? I did point the obvious problem with dorne out, and again, its just a thought. The polygamy doesn't do it for me, sorry.

Doing it for you or not, it is legal for the Targaryens (out of practice doesn't mean became illegal) and politically less problematic than ditching Elia. Putting Elia aside would likely put her children aside too, so I have no idea why that would be the option the Dornish would want. With polygamy a decendant of House Martel is still 1st in line for the throne after Rhaegar.