Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time

[Guest rhaenys]

He went up to Jordan and asked him a question(I was to far away to hear what it was) in responce Jordan hit him on the head with a staff he was holding(it contained a cyristal of some kind). This was obviously to represent some cast of the Wheel of Time serise. Jimmy was more surprised then hurt.

This was a good object lesson for me I had heard all the horror stories about how Joran acts like an ass during book signings but refused to beliveve them. Surely someone who relies on geeky fanboys and girls for a living wouldn't risk isolating them right? I was wrong.

Doesn't surprise me, as he says he still hasn't revealed the story with Asmo because a) it's obvious and he likes watching he fans go crazy over it. It's obvious? Seems a little sadistic to me.

BTW - I'm sure this had been said, but I have noticed that you all who populate the ASOIAF are, on average, a little smarter than people on the Jordan boards. Or maybe the books just provide people with more intelligent things to say?

[Werthead]

I think ASoIF appeals to an older age group, say 16+, whilst WoT could be read by probably as young as 10 with no major problems (until someone asks "What are pillow friends?"). So ASoIF fans are less likely to run around obnoxiously screaming "MARTIN IS THE BEST AUTHOR EVERRRRRR!" after only ever reading ASoIF and nothing else.

[Guest rhaenys]

I think ASoIF appeals to an older age group, say 16+, whilst WoT could be read by probably as young as 10 with no major problems (until someone asks "What are pillow friends?"). So ASoIF fans are less likely to run around obnoxiously screaming "MARTIN IS THE BEST AUTHOR EVERRRRRR!" after only ever reading ASoIF and nothing else.

That is a very good point. I wonder if his publishers were a little worried about that in the beginning, as I imagine its really men from ages 14-18 or so who make up the largest sector of the fantasy-reading demographic.

Y'know, I've always wondered what constituted a "kiss and tickle" for Matrim Cauthon, too...

And speaking of pillow friends, I realized on a reread how similar Cersei and Elaida are...

[High Septon]

Browntooth: Wtf, your C&T-avatar is moving. Not fair

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule" was the title of an order the Dark One gave the Forsaken earlier in the series. It was never explained (to the reader), but apparently it forbade direct attacks on Rand. Taim's quoting the phrase confirms his being a Darkfriend.

As much as I like the DOs order, this has made little sense to me. First, I assumed that the reason was either 1)for Rand and the asha'man to go crazy, wreck havoc upon the world and pave the way for him 2)To convert him to the dark side

Then, suddenly, came the Path of Daggers-attempt. I guess it's sort of compatible with 1, though. But in Winter's Heart, Ish'amael (who probably understands the DO better than anyone else) is still reluctant to kill Rand and orders his belongings be brought to him. As mystical as this is, even stranger, given his philosophical inclinations, is that he doesn't forbid using balefire on Rand - which is exactly what Aginor tries to do before he screws up (as usual).

A third option could be that using balefire on Rand, burning the Creator's champion out of the pattern, is the very point - but the attempt in PoD isn't balefiric as far as I remember.

To summarize, I'm confused.

[Gerold Hightower]

The PoD attempt wasn't authorized by the DO. Some of the Forsaken fear Rand as a competitor should he turn to the dark side. The DO obviously was quite happy with Rand's conquests and wars, as well as with his attempts to hunt down the Forsaken. Kept him busy so he wouldn't interfere with whatever the DO is really up to.

[High Septon]

GH: You sure? Because it seems weird that the DO hasn't yet punished the culprits if so. After all, he gave them an explicit order not to harm Rand.

But this might be my lack of knowledge due to not having read KoD (not that I mind spoilers from that book - if I did, I'd have read it by now).

[Mad Season]

Well just to let you know some people do argue Taim isn't a DF and just picked up that phrase from being around Osan'gar and other DFs. Not that I agree with that.

I don't think WoT or ASOIAF fans are really smarter. I have noticed a few people on WoT boards that appear to be in about the 3rd grade from their grammar and coherency (and I don't mean lack of punctuation but making up words and such), but once you get rid of them the people who actually read and understood either series aren't noticeably different in intelligence. And more people on ASOIAF boards randomly bash WoT when its quite clear they havn't read it, which I wouldn't consider a sign of intelligence.

[Gerold Hightower]

Rand found Osan'gar arguing with the assassins right after the attack. Looks as if he wasn't in on it. The surviving assassins were sent after Rand and died in Far Madding. There's a POV from one of them in WH. He was puzzled because he had got three different orders to kill Rand. One from Taim. (IIRC, that was the order to blow up Rand's living quarters in Cairhien.) Then there was an order from Demandred and one from Moridin, which apparently came later and was more focussed on getting the access keys. The three didn't seem to know about each other's orders.

[Oorag]

And more people on ASOIAF boards randomly bash WoT when its quite clear they havn't read it, which I wouldn't consider a sign of intelligence.

I'm pretty sure the people that bash WoT have read it. Chances are, if you've read any fantasy books besides Tolkein, at least one of them was a WoT book. With a 12 book series, there's bound to be a lot of cast-offs who read many of the books before giving up. Heck, I'm one of them. Heart of Winter was the final straw to me. I've got a friend who is still reading them even though he finds it a chore. He just wants to finish what he started.

[Crazydog7]

There is nothing RANDOM about it I consitantly bash Wheel of Time

Wheel of Time is a test of my patience not my intelligence thanks

smug generalizations based on a simple reading preference are not winning you any points either

Now I TRIED to read book one and could never quite manage it.

I say Song of Ice and Fire is much better that doesn't make it a fact its just my own POV.

[Doppelganger]

Some time tomarrow after work i'm going to tell you guys my crazy Robert Jordan story as related to me by my buddy Jimmy...oh what the heck

I live in Charleston SC Jordan lives in this town has a very grand house on one of the well to do streets in the city. I've actually walked by his home and could give you guys the address but Ran would probably delete this post if I did.

Occasionally he will attend conventions and book signings locally.

Jimmy (god have mercy on him) was untill recently a manager at a local books a million which I often hang out in. Looking at all the scifi books and wishing I had time to read them all.

He was also a huge Wheel of Time fan(I've never understood this particular subgroup, i'm a song of ice and fire man)

He went up to Jordan and asked him a question(I was to far away to hear what it was) in responce Jordan hit him on the head with a staff he was holding(it contained a cyristal of some kind). This was obviously to represent some cast of the Wheel of Time serise. Jimmy was more surprised then hurt.

This was a good object lesson for me I had heard all the horror stories about how Joran acts like an ass during book signings but refused to beliveve them. Surely someone who relies on geeky fanboys and girls for a living wouldn't risk isolating them right? I was wrong.

He... hit him on the head?

Was RJ joking around, or was he actually pissed off?

[Mad Season]

Did I say there was anything wrong with commenting on it if you read it? No, and if you think everyone who instantly compares any long or bad book to WoT has read it then you're mistaken. Comments like "this plot was completely pointless" show they didn't get near to finishing the second book. I never said YOU didn't read it, but if you ever go to a WoT board and find posts started by people who are ASOIAF fans you'll see more of what I mean. (Don't ask me why they feel the need to post there in the first place)

[niamh]

Well the guy got my money for 9 books. I bash him if I want, and I do want. If they weren't so many people telling us how great he is, I wouldn't feel the need, either. Those same people tend to be the same ones who call Tolkien pretentious because they don't even have the vocabulary necessary to follow the story.

So yes, I plead guilty to drawing the conclusion that Jordan fans are idiots. Sue me.

[CelticBrennus]

Something that always bugged me about WOT was that the world building was completely insane. Randland makes no sense at all. WTF, huge, wide open areas of apparently fertile grasslands that is completely uninhabited while millions of people somehow live in the arid wasteland?

Massively militarized border nations that are completely forgotten about as they fight yearly invasions of monsters whose existence the rest of the world doubts? WTF! Jesus, all they need to do is send a bunch of Trolloc heads to some southern court and tell those rulers to get off their lazy asses and help out. Its not like the world is that big that the rest of Randland couldn’t find out.

And WTF do all those trollocs come from? I must have missed the massive agricultural base needed to maintain those hordes in what must be the near artic climate that far north.

Why do cultures completely change once you cross a border?

Also, the Dumai (sp?) Wells battle was patently absurd. Perrin and his merry band of Two Rivers folk should have been massacred by those oh so expert and deadly Aiel. Christ, are you seriously going to tell me that a few hundred half trained peasants could cut their way though thousands of the men Jordan has told us were the best fighters around without suffering massive losses if not annihilation?

[Werthead]

more people on ASOIAF boards randomly bash WoT when its quite clear they havn't read it, which I wouldn't consider a sign of intelligence.

I know lots of people who didn't like the first book and didn't proceed any more with the series. By and large they bash that one book alone (and this goes for WoT fans talking about ASoIF and ASoIF fans talking about WoT). Frankly the number of Jordan fans who hate ASoIF because AGoT wasn't their expected level of comfort reading that they got from WoT is insanely huge. Just go on any hard-core Jordan message board and see the response you get.

I've read all 11 books. I've read Books 1-6 three times apiece and 7 twice. I'm fully prepared to stand up and say it started off well, good worldbuilding, a nice attempt at the 'definitive' cheesecorn fantasy story (arguably previously and still held by Raymond E. Feist's Magician) and then completely disintegrated during Book 8. 11 was a vague return to form, but as a series it's quality has been fatally compromised. RJ may be able to pull of a decent ending, but it certainly won't change tthe fact that between one-third and one-quarter of this series is padded-out cack that will be skim-read by all but the most patient readers.

CB: the depopulation of Randland is something that is mentioned many times in the books. It's a bit like asking why 300 million people are crammed into the cities of Europe when there's vast tracts of uninhabited fertile grassland in Ukraine and Belarus. Also, whilst the peasents of southern Randland may not believe in Trollocs, their rulers certainly do, probably for the reasons you cite (plus Aes Sedai telling them it is so). The former First Sword of Andor, Luc, went off and fought on the Blightborder because he felt that the south wasn't doing enough to suppor the defence there. The Blight doesn't have an arctic climate as the land there is humid because of the corruption of the Blight. What they eat is a major plot hole in the series, unless they eat one another, in which case they cannot have very large numbers.

Cultures changing when the characters cross borders is a bit odd, especially as Randland's borders have been rather fluid. Some areas, such as the Altara-Illian-Murandy-Andor border areas covered a lot in PoD and KoD in particular, do have some cultural similiarities across their joint borders, and the Borderlands even more so blend into one another.

[CelticBrennus]

CB: the depopulation of Randland is something that is mentioned many times in the books. It's a bit like asking why 300 million people are crammed into the cities of Europe when there's vast tracts of uninhabited fertile grassland in Ukraine and Belarus.

Well that’s easy. Modern Europeans are not farmers who make their living on agriculture. 80-90% of Randland would be farmers or those who perform tasks directly related to farming. Land that can be farmed or grazed does not stay empty for long. Someone would claim the land and live there. Serfs or abused peasants should be flocking to those empty areas, and at the very least creating communities like those of the Cossacks who fled the Russian boyars.

All you gotta do is go into any town or village and say ‘Free Land, come and get it!’ and it would not be depopulated anymore.

[Slurktan]

And WTF do all those trollocs come from? I must have missed the massive agricultural base needed to maintain those hordes in what must be the near artic climate that far north.

As far as I can tell Trollocs are created by the "One Power". I would assume that means they could simply keep making more forever. Trollocs eat their own dead and there are raids to the borderlands as well.

Why do cultures completely change once you cross a border?

So you are saying that this isn't an occurance that happens in the world? I find that thought to be patently absurd given that you can find such an occurance by driving North to Quebec (assuming you live in the U.S.) And yes, that changes immediately on crossing the imaginary line. It's kind of funny actually.

Well that’s easy. Modern Europeans are not farmers who make their living on agriculture. 80-90% of Randland would be farmers or those who perform tasks directly related to farming. Land that can be farmed or grazed does not stay empty for long. Someone would claim the land and live there. Serfs or abused peasants should be flocking to those empty areas, and at the very least creating communities like those of the Cossacks who fled the Russian boyars.

All you gotta do is go into any town or village and say ‘Free Land, come and get it!’ and it would not be depopulated anymore.

Why didn't they do that in the Ukraine then during say.... the 1100's or before? The same tracts of grasslands that are empty now, were empty during the medieval period. I'm curious as well as to what you are basing this "80-90% of Randland would be farmers" off of though.

[Gerold Hightower]

The point about the empty land is that Randland is a declining civilisation. Population is decreasing and knowege is lost. That's in part because it gets hit by the Dark One's/Ishamael's schemes every 1000 years (Breaking of the World/ Trolloc Wars/ Artur Hawkwing and War of 100years) and in part because it's a post-apocalypse civilisation, not one that has grown out of a more primitive one. Besides, theyll need room for all those Seanchan settlers...

As for the Trollocs, there is no way the Blight could support them. Neither could the Borderland raids. But the same can be said about Tolkien's orcs.

[CelticBrennus]

Why didn't they do that in the Ukraine then during say.... the 1100's or before? The same tracts of grasslands that are empty now, were empty during the medieval period.

Those grasslands in Belarus and Ukraine are not empty now, they are some of the most productive farmland in Europe.

They also were inhabited during the Middle Ages too. Either by farmers/herders, or the steppe nomads who killed and enslaved the farmers/herders.

I'm curious as well as to what you are basing this "80-90% of Randland would be farmers" off of though.

I based the percentage of people in a pre-modern agricultural society, like Europe before the Industrial Revolution who were farmers.

Pre-modern farming was labor intensive and not terribly productive by modern standards. It required large numbers of people to work the land in order to ensure that there would be enough food for the small number who didn’t work the land.

Population is decreasing and knowege is lost.

But why? It doesn’t take that long for population losses to be rebuilt, especially nowhere near 1000 years. Hell, Europe’s population jumped from 40 million to 60 million in a couple centuries during the Middle Ages.

[Werthead]

The Trollocs can reproduce themselves and they can also be 'bred' in enormous vats, although I think only Aginor knew how to do this and given that he is dead (twice over) that may not be an option any more. Nevertheless, the fact that Rand and Logain were able to take out 100,000 Trollocs does indicate that the numbers of Trollocs in the Blight are enormous. How? Who knows?

Also, WoT society is based on 17th/18th Century Europe, even if technology is somewhat behind. So although farmers would make up a large percentage of the population, they would certainly not be the overwhelming majority.