Dune: Threat or Menace? To reread or retire.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

How about where Robert Jordan got the idea for the Aiel, Aes Sedai, and the Dragon Reborn?

[sologdin]

scot, agreed. laid out in some detail here.

[cseresz.reborn]

How about where Robert Jordan got the idea for the Aiel, Aes Sedai, and the Dragon Reborn?

(sigh) archetypes, archetypes...

Zulu and Native Americans, Roman Catholic Church, myths, legends, folktales etc., etc.

http://www.steelypip...er-sf-dune.html

Vladimir Propp: Morphology of the Folktale

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Her credit to JK Rowling for giving the "whole fantasy field a boost" is tinged with regret. "I didn't feel she ripped me off, as some people did," she says quietly, "though she could have been more gracious about her predecessors. My incredulity was at the critics who found the first book wonderfully original. She has many virtues, but originality isn't one of them. That hurt."

:bang:

[Lannes]

For my 2 cents, I think Dune is the greatest Science Fiction novel ever written and I've read it around 12 times over the years....

[Ormond]

I very rarely reread anything (my attitude is that there are way too many books out there I've never read yet that I want to read before I die, so I don't have time to reread books I've read before, even if I really liked them.)

But I really loved Dune when I read it years ago and would agree that it deserves its place as a classic of the field. Not that I think it was perfect -- although I found the Bene Gesserit fascinating, I don't agree that otherwise Herbert did a particularly good job with religion. Perhaps I just never got to later books where their past history is explained, but I found the whole concept of "Zensunni wanderers" rather unconvincing, for example. However, I loved most of the rest of the world-building in the original book.

I'm someone who was really disappointed by the sequels, however. I only read the first two and remember being disgusted at the end of the third book because I thought there were no longer any characters left in the series that I could respect or admire, and it was hard for me to suspend disbelief about the transformation of Leto. So I've never even read God-Emperor of Dune, much less any of the prequels.

[sologdin]

you people, so nitpicky. as though a human person teratomorphing into a train-size worm is somehow more unbelievable than balrogs having wings or han shooting first.

[Darth Richard]

Yeah I guess I should read Dune finally.

[Darth Richard]

(sigh) archetypes, archetypes...

Zulu and Native Americans, Roman Catholic Church, myths, legends, folktales etc., etc.

http://www.steelypip...er-sf-dune.html

Vladimir Propp: Morphology of the Folktale

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:bang:

:ack:

Is this guy for real?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Yes. He's quite the fan of Herr Jordan.

[Shryke]

He's not completely wrong though, since the Aiel are based to some extent on the Zulus and Native Americans, as are the Aes Sedai on the Catholic Church. (though also on ideas from Dune)

And The Dragon Reborn is based on, well, every prophesied hero ever.

[Darth Richard]

I'm not saying he's completely wrong..just...unstable. :P

[Dr. Tachyon]

I very rarely reread anything (my attitude is that there are way too many books out there I've never read yet that I want to read before I die, so I don't have time to reread books I've read before, even if I really liked them.)

But I really loved Dune when I read it years ago and would agree that it deserves its place as a classic of the field. Not that I think it was perfect -- although I found the Bene Gesserit fascinating, I don't agree that otherwise Herbert did a particularly good job with religion. Perhaps I just never got to later books where their past history is explained, but I found the whole concept of "Zensunni wanderers" rather unconvincing, for example. However, I loved most of the rest of the world-building in the original book.

I'm someone who was really disappointed by the sequels, however. I only read the first two and remember being disgusted at the end of the third book because I thought there were no longer any characters left in the series that I could respect or admire, and it was hard for me to suspend disbelief about the transformation of Leto. So I've never even read God-Emperor of Dune, much less any of the prequels.

Forget about the prequels, those weren't written by Frank Herbert. There are only six genuine Dune books. The God emperor is set 3500 years after Children, and Heretics and Chapterhouse are set 1500 years after God Emperor. Unfortunately, Frank Herbert died before he could write the seventh and (presumably) final book, so the series ends on a cliffhanger. That leaves much of what happens in the last two books unexplained and the full extent of Leto's Golden Plan unknown. Still, you should give the God emperor a try.

[summer_stark]

you people, so nitpicky. as though a human person teratomorphing into a train-size worm is somehow more unbelievable than balrogs having wings or han shooting first.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Literally laughed out loud when I read this. Yea, it sort of went off the rails in Book 4.

I read it early in college and was friggin fascinated. I adored the series. Right up until the giant worm person. That said, I don't know if I'd have the patience for it or the idealism to enjoy the philosophical ideas. The political maneuvering by creating a messiah is still pretty amazing though. It's definitely worth a first read--I'd say the first 3 are worth a first read. It's still on my top ten all time favorite books, but that could just be habit at this point. Plus, post aSoIaF, very few books are up to snuff. But whomever said that it is foundational for a ton of shit we see today, was right.

So yes, read it if you haven't already.

[Lummel]

I couldn't disagree more. If your experience of reading Dune, Messiah and Children was that it was going downhill then don't read God-Emperor, it has some good bits (the opening is great, the conversation between Leto II and the Atredies woman in his desert is nice, what becomes Leto II at the end is a tolerable ah-ha that makes sense moment) but they are not worth the bother of reading the whole book. Read a summary, there are probably overly detailed ones out there.

After Dune we see the reasonable and plausible workings out and implications of what is introduced in Dune. There is some satisfaction in seeing the environmental changes and what becomes of the Fremen but the reading experience is barely above reading a maths textbook and this is already after saying that Dune is good compared with other SFF not with fiction writing as a whole. Environmental changes described in Dune plus time with social repercussions is not a plot. You read it and think, 'well that makes sense, in fact it was what I imagined would happen, it's got it's irony, hehe, but hey the author isn't playing this for irony'.

The problem isn't a man becoming a train sized worm, that is a good bit, it's that the reading experience is a slog. Do I care, I asked myself as I read through, and why does an introductory book on statistics seem more exciting and how can a book about a man with quasi-divine prescience who has transformed himself into a train sized worm be so dull?

Reading God Emperor is like watching the end game of a chess match. White has one piece on the board, Black has all their pieces on the board, the author has told you that white will win and that white will win because Black concedes. You watch the game play out. When it comes to the moment of concession you think, 'well that was even more contrived than it needed to be'.

[summer_stark]

I couldn't disagree more. If your experience of reading Dune, Messiah and Children was that it was going downhill then don't read God-Emperor, it has some good bits (the opening is great, the conversation between Leto II and the Atredies woman in his desert is nice, what becomes Leto II at the end is a tolerable ah-ha that makes sense moment) but they are not worth the bother of reading the whole book. Read a summary, there are probably overly detailed ones out there.

After Dune we see the reasonable and plausible workings out and implications of what is introduced in Dune. There is some satisfaction in seeing the environmental changes and what becomes of the Fremen but the reading experience is barely above reading a maths textbook and this is already after saying that Dune is good compared with other SFF not with fiction writing as a whole. Environmental changes described in Dune plus time with social repercussions is not a plot. You read it and think, 'well that makes sense, in fact it was what I imagined would happen, it's got it's irony, hehe, but hey the author isn't playing this for irony'.

The problem isn't a man becoming a train sized worm, that is a good bit, it's that the reading experience is a slog. Do I care, I asked myself as I read through, and why does an introductory book on statistics seem more exciting and how can a book about a man with quasi-divine prescience who has transformed himself into a train sized worm be so dull?

Reading God Emperor is like watching the end game of a chess match. White has one piece on the board, Black has all their pieces on the board, the author has told you that white will win and that white will win because Black concedes. You watch the game play out. When it comes to the moment of concession you think, 'well that was even more contrived than it needed to be'.

I have no idea whether you were referring to my post, but I meant read Dune if you haven't, not read God Emperor Dune...and yes, for all the reasons you stated, plus the absurdity of the worm, it was a bit of a mess. I didn't stop reading the series until book 5 though, so I didn't dislike book 4 as much as most.

I'm not sure what you "couldn't disagree more" with...but if this was directed at me, which it seems like it was, then it seems a bit over the top as a reaction. First, my post was half in jest and speaking to the posters who hadn't read Dune. I thought the guy who I responded to was funny, so I wanted to show my appreciation. The rest of the post was about books 1-3. So...yea...whatever bro.

[Lummel]

Well my post was three quarters in jest so don't worry gov.

But the train sized worm is good. Herbert should have had more train sized worms talking philosophically and fighting at the same time.

[summer_stark]

Well my post was three quarters in jest so don't worry gov.

But the train sized worm is good. Herbert should have had more train sized worms talking philosophically and fighting at the same time.

HAHAHAHA. Almost like a rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead, but with giant worms...I like it.

[Lummel]

difficult to stage though

[Demonblade]

The first Dune novel could be reread countless times in the same way that some Tolkien geeks that I know reread LOTR every summer. Both stories lend themselves well to world-building, and both authors have detractors whose complaints mostly consist of writing style issues. I, myself have criticised Tolkien quite extensively over the years, but I noticed a couple of years ago that many of my criticisms of Tolkien could easily apply to Herbert. Of Herbert's six, I have only reread Dune and Heretics, though I have been meaning to pick up God Emperor again at some point.

Dune is an amazingly complex piece of work, and could have been a great stand-alone novel, had the sequels never come to pass. The issues presented in Dune are complex and ambitious to explore, like religion and oppression, humanity vs. technology, social structures, among others. The sequels ought to be understood in the context of the story as a whole, and not as individual stories. If Herbert were to actually finish his story, Messiah, Children, God Emperor and Chapterhouse could have been more crucial to the storyline and not relatively stand-alone duds.

[Galactus]

I'm not a fan, I thought it was OK, and it's obviously influential, but the entire thing reads like the thesis of a history major who did way too much drugs. And there's some general "I don't think humans work like that." Going on. And the Honored Matres *rolleyes*. And the giant sandworm. And the kid that was the reincarnation of.... And what the fuck was so special about Duncan Idaho anyway?

Some neat concepts, failed execution. (although the "poison gas tooth" scene is referenced in Grim Fandango, so it's not a total loss)