Heresy 39

[Black Wolf Smith]

If the wall keeps him alive how come everyone isn't affected? Why aren't there a crapload of 100 year old guys there? This seems like one of those classic GRRM misdirection deals. I'm wracking my brain for a different angle.

Magic in the Targaryen blood?

[Ser Leftwich]

If the wall keeps him alive how come everyone isn't affected? Why aren't there a crapload of 100 year old guys there? This seems like one of those classic GRRM misdirection deals. I'm wracking my brain for a different angle.

Maybe one can only be preserved with ice, if they are of fire?

[Black Crow]

If the wall keeps him alive how come everyone isn't affected? Why aren't there a crapload of 100 year old guys there? This seems like one of those classic GRRM misdirection deals. I'm wracking my brain for a different angle.

Oh, I agree. There's got to be something more to it than that, but while his fire consumes/cold preserves remark is freely used, I think that the context needs to be born in mind as well.

As I'm writing this Black Wolf Smith (and now Ser Leftwich) has suggested the something more is Targaryen blood. At this point in time that's the only thing I can think of as well and that in turn raises a couple of interesting ideas.

While we've been stressing the fact that Bloodraven is really Bryn Blackwood rather than Brynden Targaryen, is it also the combination of the old magic beyond the Wall and his Targaryen blood that has enabled him to live far beyond his normal span, and if so will the significance of Jon Snow's supposed Targaryen blood be the same?

In other words if R+L=J does that point to how he may survive his present little local difficulty rather than set him up as the heir to the Iron Throne?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Maybe its me.

I have seen a couple post wear people seem to think that Fall and Spring are normal. IMO the Spring and Fall are not fixed either. The Citadel sends out White ravens for Spring and Fall as well.

IIRC somebody said something like " hopefully fall will last long enough for 2 or 3 more crops to come in." Thats seems like more then just a few months to me.

Also there was Tourney at HH, in the year of false spring. That sounds to me as if the false spring was pretty long.

I am not saying that they have 10 year long springs, but it isn't like its 3 months either.

[Black Crow]

Regarding the idea that the new threat aren't the WW, but the wights; perhaps its because magic is coming back. The dragons being born and the dead coming back (wights/uncat) are just symptoms of the same thing.

Indeed, but the puzzler here is that while the red comet literally signalled the birth of the dragons, the wights have been raised up earlier.

[Black Crow]

Me like :cheers: It occurs to me that whether fantasy or real some parallels remain the same. Some act of reciprocity must have taken place which is, what did the COTF offer the gods to cause the these calamities?

In ancient and modern civilizations people would offer a sacrifice of some kind and a sacrifice/sacrifices can take many forms. For example, worship,blood sacrifices the promise of a male child from each generation.So we must ask what we think the god's required most from the COTF.

Its worth bearing in mind that according to the songs the Children turned to "dark magic" to accomplish the breaking of the Arm, so it could well be a variant of this "year and a day business". The deed will be done, but in return the door to Hell will be opened for a certain period to let loose the Wild Hunt.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Before his cold preserves line:

"Dragons," Aemon whispered. "The grief and glory of my House, they were." "

The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of letathern wings, feel their hot breath"

He talks of dragons before and after he talks about cold preserving and the wall.

Why would he picture dragons shadows on the snow?

[Little Bird of Varys]

Sorry if the message doesn't fit on the current discussion, but some members had asked for me to post this on Heresy 37. However, I was unable to enter the forum for a few days.

I want to give my opinions later on. Regardless of me English.

I like the political side of the books. But my main interest is to study about the mysteries of ancient powers.

I would like to speak not only of Stark, but many other characters that look like they were touched by the Old Gods and their dreams. Jaime was one.That dream has profoundly changed his personality and made him go to save Brienne.

Below is a my post involving the use of bones and Glamor.

I see that almost everyone is associating the use of bones and hair in just spells glamor. The more I read and reread, the more I realize the strong connection that exists between the Old Gods and bones and blood. We see several bones in the cave of BR. And so Melissande says, the bones remember.

I believe that the bones then have great power saving Memories and personal characteristics. So are great for glamor, but in no way limited to that. I see the bones with a utility like the Weirwoods. We know that blood is used in more powerful spells. The supposed bones of Nagga are weirwoods dead to me. All believe they are bones. So I think there is a connection between bone and blood with Weirwoods, and perhaps these are compenentes for Weirwoods.

Magic of Others = Blood, ice, water and wind?? Dreams? Darkness?

Magic R'hllor = Blood, fire, wind, shadows and steel??

Magic of the Old Gods = Blood, bones, dreams, wind, water, heat, cold, dirt (

ground), bronze and iron?? And what else? Darkness? LIVING CREATURES?

I believe that the Old Gods are a point of equilibrium. But ... if the Old Gods actually absorb the knowledge and powers of other "gods"?

Just picked up one of my favorite spots. And if Jon and Stark's are going to a path of "evil"? Like the Old Gods, but also always felt a lot of emotion in the scenes involving the Others.

[Black Crow]

ust picked up one of my favorite spots. And if Jon and Stark's are going to a path of "evil"? Like the Old Gods, but also always felt a lot of emotion in the scenes involving the Others.

I do have to say that I don't regard the assosiation of the Starks with the Old Gods and the suggestion of a connection to the Others/Sidhe as putting them on the side of evil. Both "sides" are capable of evil things but equilibrium doesn't mean smashing one side and sending them howling back to hell. Azor Ahai needs to be balanced by... Jon Snow?

[Little Bird of Varys]

I do have to say that I don't regard the assosiation of the Starks with the Old Gods and the suggestion of a connection to the Others/Sidhe as putting them on the side of evil. Both "sides" are capable of evil things but equilibrium doesn't mean smashing one side and sending them howling back to hell. Azor Ahai needs to be balanced by... Jon Snow?

Also don't think so. I don't see any side as good or evil. So I said "evil". If Jon really is the song of ice and fire, he can be rather the balance point.

I think AA is not the same person as the Prince that was Promised. I believe that maybe the Prince that was Promised to be the equilibrium point assuming that AA is undoubtedly the fire and maybe the last hero (Bran, perhaps) is the ice.

AA for me is like fire and the religion of r'hllor, maybe he wants to consume everything as others want. If Jon is the point of balance, perhaps the Old God are also the gods of balance that make of Jon his real champion ... or as I think, the Old God absorb what exist and Westeros. Perhaps in a supposed final Battalion where the ice and the fire collide, someone join the two opposite by sides completely.

[Black Wolf Smith]

On the theory that Mormont knew more about the WW/Others a few things.

I want to point out that the last summer lasted 9+ years. Most of the Rangers and the NW that we know are younger, and that last few winters had been short ones.

Almost all the older Rangers and NW officers are either dead, or missing since the fist.

The one Ranger that we know anything about is Gared, but we learn about him thru Will. Gared has been on the Wall since he was a boy, 40 years. He knows it, seen, done it all and the first line in the Series is from him "We should start back". Thru out that chapter he has seen enough, and wants to go back to the wall. He is worried about the cold, and of death. He might not have seen this before, but he has heard the stories.

I don't know that Mormont has seen this before, but he has heard the stories. He might not have really believed them before, because they were far away, or from sources he found unreliable.

[Srecan]

Regarding the Others and whether or not they have been active Beyond the Wall constantly or not for 8000 years. It is worth reading the chapter where Jon meets with Mance, Dalla and Val right before Stannis attacks. Mance explains to Jon the situation very clearly. The White Walkers are out there and they come in Winter. What makes it so bad this time is that unlike usual, the Thenns, Giants, Hornfoots, Ice River Clans and other far northern peoples have been unable to hold them back, the context is clear that normally it is not such a problem that these folk can't withstand but this time is different. So the White Walkers are always around during Winter Beyond the Wall, so it is ludicrous to think that the Rangers of the Watch have no idea about it

Regarding Mormont, the context with which he speaks of WW sightings and White Shadows indicates that he is well aware that they exist. The impression one gets is that it's not that White Walkers have been sighted that he finds worrying, but how far south they and how early. He is also along with pretty much all the senior staff aware of what Craster is doing and the "cruel gods" that he serves.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that Mormont had encyclopedic knowledge of the Others, for starters he wouldn't have been so shocked to see the Wights and he would have burnt the bodies upon finding them or gone for the fire himself when they attacked. But I think it is pretty clear that the experience rangers including Mormont, Benjen, Qhorin, Mance and Gared all know that the White Walkers are not children's ghost stories, but very real and very present.

More and more i think that Mormont actualy didnt know much about the others except for those reports. What im thinking is that it is Benjen (some Stark knowledge?) who told Mormont and rest of the NW comanders few things that got Old Bear worried.¸He said to Jon if i remember correctly that they gonna find Benjen dead or alive and find out what the heck is going on, or something along those lines.

He talks to Tyrion about having even darker dreams when speaking about WW threat, possibly 3EC sending some visions to him. Also when they aproach Tyrion to ask for help it looks to me that Mormont and Eamon allready planed how to aproach Tyrion and ask for help without him thinking that they are gone bonkers hence Mormont desregards Tyrions poke at him with the talk about myrmaids.

Sorry for late reply but thread is moving too fast :)

[Srecan]

Othor and Jafer - kill off Mormont

I was wondering about that. Why would they put so much effort in killing Mormont, first time at the wall, second time at the fist, third time at craster but third time they wanted to make sure he is dead so they even send one WW. They either wanted to leave NW leaderless or (and this has been discused before) Mormont aint Stark and they want/need Stark at the wall.

[Black Crow]

Before his cold preserves line:

He talks of dragons before and after he talks about cold preserving and the wall.

Why would he picture dragons shadows on the snow?

I think its just a very clever bit of writing. On the surface he's talking about dragons and how the pursuit of them ruined his house, only he remains because instead of chasing the dragon he turned his back on the whole business and came north to the cold of the Wall.

Where it gets complicated is when he says that Jon couldn't know when he sent him away from the Wall and that he'd go back if it wasn't already too late.

This suggests that there was indeed something there actively keeping him alive and that may be relevant to what Leaf said of greenseers; that those born with the gift had much shorter lives on earth. Perhaps the same is true of Targaryens; that those born with the blood of the dragon are gifted but burn out all too quickly (sometimes literally), unless as in his case that blood is chilled down.

[Black Crow]

On the theory that Mormont knew more about the WW/Others a few things.

I want to point out that the last summer lasted 9+ years. Most of the Rangers and the NW that we know are younger, and that last few winters had been short ones.

Almost all the older Rangers and NW officers are either dead, or missing since the fist.

The one Ranger that we know anything about is Gared, but we learn about him thru Will. Gared has been on the Wall since he was a boy, 40 years. He knows it, seen, done it all and the first line in the Series is from him "We should start back". Thru out that chapter he has seen enough, and wants to go back to the wall. He is worried about the cold, and of death. He might not have seen this before, but he has heard the stories.

I don't know that Mormont has seen this before, but he has heard the stories. He might not have really believed them before, because they were far away, or from sources he found unreliable.

I think its more straightforward than that and comes back to Mormont not connecting the White Walkers with the Others. The rangers know of the White Walkers, but they're few and far between with just the occassional encounter deep in the woods of the far north in winter and tales around Wildling fires. If the rangers concerned speak the Old Tongue they may even nod to each other and warily pass on their way. They're certainly dangerous, but there's a big difference between something nasty in the woodpile and an active threat to the Wall.

That's why Mormont's concerned, not because there are White Shadows in the woods, but because they're near Eastwatch, because reports are getting more frequent and there's other signs and portents as well, but its not until the wights turn up on his dootstep that he finally makes the connection to the Others, which is why I'm suggesting that the Others are not just the White Walkers, but the wights, direwolves, crows and who knows what else besides.

[Srecan]

I think its just a very clever bit of writing. On the surface he's talking about dragons and how the pursuit of them ruined his house, only he remains because instead of chasing the dragon he turned his back on the whole business and came north to the cold of the Wall.

Where it gets complicated is when he says that Jon couldn't know when he sent him away from the Wall and that he'd go back if it wasn't already too late.

This suggests that there was indeed something there actively keeping him alive and that may be relevant to what Leaf said of greenseers; that those born with the gift had much shorter lives on earth. Perhaps the same is true of Targaryens; that those born with the blood of the dragon are gifted but burn out all too quickly (sometimes literally), unless as in his case that blood is chilled down.

I allways thought that Leaf was comparing life on earth with life after, not humans life with human greenseer life.

[Black Crow]

I was wondering about that. Why would they put so much effort in killing Mormont, first time at the wall, second time at the fist, third time at craster but third time they wanted to make sure he is dead so they even send one WW. They either wanted to leave NW leaderless or (and this has been discused before) Mormont aint Stark and they want/need Stark at the wall.

Long standing puzzle and not one likely ever to be answered on the basis of the present texts. Essentially though I'd say there are two options; either its just a simple plot device without too much thought as to the whys and wherefors, or it was a set-up intended to accelerate Jon Snow's progression to becoming Lord Commander.

[Black Crow]

I allways thought that Leaf was comparing life on earth with life after, not humans life with human greenseer life.

No, she was talking about the ordinary lifespan of greenseers, saying that they don't last long on their legs, but then live long once they're in the wood.

[Srecan]

No, she was talking about the ordinary lifespan of greenseers, saying that they don't last long on their legs, but then live long once they're in the wood.

Thats what i meant, but what u are saying is that BR is anomaly in a sence that he lives too long for a greenseer and that his targ blood is enabling that. That does make sence.

[Toccs]

There's also the fact that Bloodraven's 70 or 80 ish years of living are still "only a short time" for someone with the lifespan of centuries such as the Children of the Forest.

But I think that Bloodraven is an anomaly in a different way, in that he was much older then most when he first sat his Wierwood throne. Which is quite likely a sign of the rarity of capable Greenseers at least in the present time.