Heresy 39

[Black Crow]

@Tyryan: If I remember rightly he says something about taking three years (or was it more) to bring everybody together, but of course the threat from the wights must have already been serious enough for them to listen to him.

[JonNonRegis]

If we have evidence that they can exists as mists,and that in the account from Royce that their swords were ice crystals and they themselves were ice; then it safe to say that they can exists as a solid,liquid and a gas. Therefore they can manipulate each state whenever they deem it .

If so, perplexing that being stabbed with dragonglass would be much problem. Their hypothesized state-manipulation power seem at a bit of a loss to reverse liquification.

It's not that the Other who died was taken off guard. He was approached by Sam -- not a sprinter -- not a skilled combatant -- but in fact a slow-moving ball of fear whose eyes were closed. So the Other had plenty of time to see the approaching dragonglass, shift to some other state of matter, and thus protect itself.

No such event occurred. Instead, it melted and died.

In this regard, the nearest fictional parallel of the Others would seem to be the Wicked Witch of the West; they even shriek in a similar fashion. (Could the Crone/Morrigan have opened a door to Oz, and let flying monkeys through?)

It's largely a moot point, though. The Others have, in quite a few thousands of pages so far, shown little inclination actually to do anything. Primarily, they strike me as slackers. Two appearances in all the books is not much of a work ethic. I'm also not clear how their eyes are blue, when they've plainly been hanging around getting stoned all day. I feel Mr. Martin should dock their wages and possibly even give them the sack.

There's also the problem of how they are going to pose any sort of threat to a world well aware of their vulnerability to dragonglass.

Consider: Ten thousand archers armed with half a million dragonglass-tipped arrows would suffice to deal with a great whopping massive number of Others (whose headcount, as noted, is not likely very high in the first place), all without risking a single human life.

Put the archers on any elevated, geographically convenient spot facing a choke point through which the Others must come, such as the causeway at Moat Cailin; mix in another half million fire arrows to deal with wights; and the whole problem is dealt with before noon.

The powers of Westeros can then yawn, stretch, and head out for a hearty brunch, there to argue about which Targaryen bastards are secret Starks.

So the question becomes: How is Mr. Martin going to empower the Others/fairies, and their wight armies, to put up an adequate struggle?

[Toccs]

@Tyryan: If I remember rightly he says something about taking three years (or was it more) to bring everybody together, but of course the threat from the wights must have already been serious enough for them to listen to him.

He says that when he left the Shadow Tower there were already 5 people claiming to be fit for King Beyond the Wall, including Magnar Styr and Tormund. If the Wildlings including isolationists like the Thenns were already comming together and had already narrowed the field to 5, the treat must have been around for a considerable amount of time already.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm late but perhaps relating to the Wild Hunt I thought this was interesting:

Sometimes if the corpse was big or fat she would struggle with the weight, but most of the dead were old dry bones in wrinkled skins. Arya would look at them as she washed them, wondering what brought them to the black pool. She remembered a tale she had heard from Old Nan, about how sometimes during a long winter men who’d lived beyond their years would announce that they were going hunting. And their daughters would weep and their sons would turn their faces to the fire, she could hear Old Nan saying, but no one would stop them, or ask what game they meant to hunt, with the snows so deep and the cold wind howling. She wondered what the old Braavosi told their sons and daughters, before they set off for the House of Black and White.

& once I related Nymeria to a hellhound because she was called a bitch from the seventh hell and a hellbitch. Her pack was also called demons.

In Welsh mythology and folklore, Cŵn Annwn ( /ˌkuːn ˈænʊn/; "hounds of Annwn") were the spectral hounds of Annwn, the otherworld of Welsh myth. They were associated with a form of the Wild Hunt,...

Christians came to dub these mythical creatures as "The Hounds of Hell" or "Dogs of Hell" and theorized they were therefore owned by Satan.^[4][5] However, the Annwn of medieval Welsh tradition is an otherworldly paradise and not a hell or abode of dead souls.

In some myths they are associated with the Wild Hunt.

[Capon Breath]

If so, perplexing that being stabbed with dragonglass would be much problem. Their hypothesized state-manipulation power seem at a bit of a loss to reverse liquification.

Using sciene to determine the effects of a magical weapon on a magical being = difficult.

[Capon Breath]

@Capon Breath & Unwashed (I'm glad you posted in that order cos unwashed capon breath would be a bit gross):

I don't deny that Mormont is troubled and worried - and again when he complains to Jon of the White Shadows in the woods. My point is that this is not the reaction of a man learning of the sudden appearance of an ancient enemy believed to have been gone 8,000 since. Its the reaction of a man facing an enemy that is all too real and familiar.

I think the inference that The Old Bear is aware of WW is fine (the NW have a special alarm call for them after all) .

I think the inference that he or any of the NW have encountered them during his 70 years is a stretch - I could easily be convinced by some evidence from the text but I dont recall any (Which doesnt mean it isn't there) . I could do with re-reading Fist of the first men as I guess if they had been encoutered before that's where we would see a vets reaction to it. (No doubt a better informed Heretic than I can chip in here).

I think any inference that as a result of an awareness or encounter with a WW they can somehow be discounted as one of many things in the dark woods rather than a major supernatural threat to all life is making a giant leap of faith. The NW don't have a special alarm for Snarks or Grumkins and the wall aint 700 feet tall & magical to keep snow bears out.

For me the most compelling support for the WW being bad news comes from a pretty lame source. They are used as a Westerosi curse "The Others take you" and we tend not to curse people with things that are nice. So unlike the modern world where we tell people to "Go to hell" without knowing if it exists - we know the Others exisit and they are used as a Curse, why?

[Black Lady]

Well, them being used as a curse does not necessarily mean they are bad news, just that most people think they are bad news. For instance years ago same curses where used for black people. It could that they are just foreign and strange and people tend to think that things they don't know are bad news.

[Melifeather]

Craster's daughter/wives state in no uncertain terms that the White Shadows that are coming for the boy are Craster's sons and the boys brothers.

Except that Craster's sacrifices have a very real very tangible payoff in the form of him, his people and his lands being safe from the White Walkers and their Wights. This is so real that after hearing the story of the Nights Watch being harassed by the Others and Wights all the way from the Fist to his Keep Craster can guarantee that there will be no attacks while they are under his roof.

Well the Blackfyre Rebellion didn't happen until 195, and since Bloodraven was around 20 at the time and Shiera was a teenager, there definitely won't be anything about them in this story.

The White Walkers have existed for thousands of years prior to Craster, so he cannot be the origin of them. I liken the wives stating that the sons are coming to believing in vengeful spirits...ghosts. And if the sons of Craster are being sacrificed to the White Walkers and the White Walkers are from the realm of death, they are taking souls that they believe are due them, and the wives are then associating the dead spirits coming back for more. Craster also sacrificed sheep when he had no sons. If the sons were needed for protection and for creating White Walkers, what good were the sheep?

If the White Walkers are looking to take back souls to the death realm, and that only life can pay for life, then Ned sacrificing Lady was necessary for Bran to live.

[Lummel]

...I think the inference that he or any of the NW have encountered them during his 70 years is a stretch - I could easily be convinced by some evidence from the text but I dont recall any (Which doesnt mean it isn't there) . I could do with re-reading Fist of the first men as I guess if they had been encoutered before that's where we would see a vets reaction to it. (No doubt a better informed Heretic than I can chip in here)...

The assault on the fist is in Chett's prologue to ASOS. No veteran speaks there about previous encounters. Then there is the Sam chapter in which he stabs the white walker when he remembers the assault. No mention there of previous encounters either.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but the only mention prior to the fist iirc is AGOT Mormont to Tyrion about the fisherfolk having seen white walkers on the shore. I'd say that in the AGOT prologue there is an awareness of 'other things' that are nasty in the woods. But in true horror fashion nobody defines the fear by giving it a name.

GRRM routinely restricts information on a need to know basis and clearly he wants to maintain the mystery :laugh:

[Capon Breath]

Well, them being used as a curse does not necessarily mean they are bad news, just that most people think they are bad news. For instance years ago same curses where used for black people. It could that they are just foreign and strange and people tend to think that things they don't know are bad news.

I think this might be slightly different, we say insulting things about lots of people / groups of people but we don't typically use them as curses. Please excuse my use of a Crude example but we say:

"Go to hell" inference -Hell is bad so sending you there is a curse and i'm doing something to you

When we say "You're a [insert minority group]" we are using it as an insult not a curse and i'm saying some about you.

[Capon Breath]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence ...

Agreed but it does act as a warning signal not to rely on absent evidence to build or support a theory.

[Zacker]

@wolfmaid7.

Now you are encroaching on the law of thermodynamics. I like the concept of manipulating the three states (water, ice and mist); but in order to do so, you would need control over the law of temperature and pressure. The temperature aspect is fairly straight forward. Start with liquid (water); you lower the temperature and you get ice (solid). Raise the temperature and you get vapor (mist).

Pressure is a little different animal. So as to not confuse the two variables; let's assume that temperature remains the same (freezing, hot, or middle Westerosi). If pressure decreases, then water (liquid) would boil more and more ferochiously. Conversely, it pressure increases, water quickly (for the lack of a better term) transforms into steam (mist).

Forgetting for a moment about temperature (the WW's can certainly increase or decrease the variable at will)...perhaps the real purpose of the wall (by the CoTF...ignoring for a moment the First Men) is to maintain pressure between the two realms. Bear with me.

Without the wall, the Other's could approach the line of demarkation and everything would turn to ice. At least what was water based. If however, the magic weaved into the building of the wall was an impediment to temperature...let's say pressure, then as the temperature would drop (approach of the WW) if the wall would counter-react by raising the pressure against the two realms...water would turn into steam.

At this point, the harder the WW's would try and lower the tempeature (freezing everything around it); the wall would counter-react and cause the water to turn to steam. In effect a barrier against the White Walkers.

Edited to Add: My hypothesis is that the Wall is a pressure barrier against the Others (White Walkers).

Hrm. I'm not a physics expert but afaict water (constant temperature) under low pressure turns to mist (vapour, boil) and under high pressure would ultimately solidify. Raised pressure would raise the temperature, though. Regardless, any pressure change large enough to cause a transformation of water states would kill humans pretty darn quick.

I also believe that science fiction writer GRRM wouldn't dare to mess with such things.

[Hence I also am a firm believer that long seasons in ASIAF are caused by celestial phenomena and not magic, which some seems to think. (a second shattered moon is mentioned in a dragons origin story and shorter dayligh period was used as a sign that winter is coming).]

[Kuragin]

I think searching for a scientific explanation of why the WW walk over snow may be a dead end. Evidence of their mass and corprality is fairly clear from the sword been pulled out of the other's hands in the Sam the Slayer encounter. Solid with magical properties is a nice catch all to explain them.

[Tyryan Lannister]

If the White Walkers are looking to take back souls to the death realm, and that only life can pay for life, then Ned sacrificing Lady was necessary for Bran to live.

yay i have a convert to my belief on Ned/lady! :grouphug:

[Tyryan Lannister]

[Hence I also am a firm believer that long seasons in ASIAF are caused by celestial phenomena and not magic, which some seems to think. (a second shattered moon is mentioned in a dragons origin story and shorter dayligh period was used as a sign that winter is coming).]

Umm... Martin has said on numerous occasions that there is no scientific explanation for the seasons being the way that they are and that it is because of Magic.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Wait, so the theory is that Mormont knows that there is something roaming around beyond the Wall that he identifies as white walkers, but he doesn't know what they are or why or if they're a threat and doesn't know that white walkers = Others? I suppose I can buy that. I was operating under the impression that people were stating that Mormont knew that white walkers and the Others were one and the same.

That's roughly what it is for me at least, yes

I just have trouble seeing the wights as any type of real threat. I mean, sure, they're strong and practically indestructible, but they're also slow, clumsy, dumb, have no ability to improvise or strategize their attack and they're ridiculously vulnerable to fire. Their only real strength is their numbers, which at this time are indeterminate. They are most effective in an ambush situation among unprepared foes, as we see in the case of Jafer and Othor and in front of the Children's cave. We're told in the series that well-fortified defenders can hold off ten or more times their own numbers of attackers, so how much more so must that hold true for wights? Fifty? One hundred?

That's why I'm convinced that Others must have been present at the Fist, simply because unless there were 30,000 or more wights attacking the Fist, there should have been no way that the Watch was routed in such short order.

This. But want to amend the only strength statement. I'd say they have two strengths, both of which you point out; one, the obvious, being the numbers (and the fact that they're numbers could conceivably grow instead of diminish on the battle field) and second being, as you've pointed out, the unpreparedness of the living defenders. I'd say that the biggest thing in the wights advantage is that those who have not fought them/have no connection to the Wall/believe that all these tales are just ghost stories without basis in fact would, when confronted with an army of wights, most likely fall back on instinct, meet the enemy on the field, and get utterly crushed (and therefore surge the wights' numbers, thus exacerbating the problem). People not only will not be prepared for the coming flood, but they will not even think that they should be prepared for, to them, it is a non-threat ghost story instead of being a reality. So they won't do the research/hear wiser counsel on the wights being extremely vulnerable to fire.

Also, on the topic of their vulnerabilities, we don't know for sure if dragonglass works against the wights since the one that Sam tried to stab Small Paul with broke against his armor and, from what we can tell from the passage, Small Paul himself never actually touched the dagger. We know that a small spark can incinerate them (from that same scene) we just don't know if obsidian would work (if it does then a shower of obsidian tipped arrows would also to the trick)

ETA: also agree about the White Walkers being present at the Fist, especially since the Cold is there as well, and it's the WW, not the wights, that are directly associated with the Cold.

[Black Crow]

Wait, so the theory is that Mormont knows that there is something roaming around beyond the Wall that he identifies as white walkers, but he doesn't know what they are or why or if they're a threat and doesn't know that white walkers = Others? I suppose I can buy that. I was operating under the impression that people were stating that Mormont knew that white walkers and the Others were one and the same.

Yeah, basically what I'm saying is that the White Walkers have been around since God was a boy. Nasty certainly but you don't come across them very often so finding them near Eastwatch is certainly unsettling, but Mormont conspicuously doesn't make the connection with the Others. Nor does anybody else of course and at the Fist its the wights who attack. There was obviously at least one White Walker there, but it was the wights that had the Watch blowing triple blasts on their horns.

This comes back to some of our earlier discussions on the term Others possibly being used in the plural rather than referring exclusively to the White Walkers. We's talked about how the "Others" defeated in the original Battle for the Dawn might have been the Children "and the other old races", but that doesn't fit the Winter theme or Leaf's failure to number the White Walkers among the Old Races.

However I think that this is the right track and that properly speaking Others actually means, White Walkers, Wights and perhaps others as well. Despite having Ghost on the premises, Mormont does include direwolves in his ominous signs and I can't help but observe that in war the only real winners are the crows.

[Little Wing]

However I think that this is the right track and that properly speaking Others actually means, White Walkers, Wights and perhaps others as well. Despite having Ghost on the premises, Mormont does include direwolves in his ominous signs and I can't help but observe that in war the only real winners are the crows.

Yeah, Arya_Nym had connected the direwolves with the Wild Hunt in her post. Well, Nymeria, to be exact, but it may be of some significance to the whole Stark/Winter connection...

[Little Wing]

yay i have a convert to my belief on Ned/lady! :grouphug:

It's an interesting theory, but didn't we see in Tyrion's first POV in AGoT that he says to Jaime and Cersei, during their breakfast, that Luwin said Bran will live, that the worst was over and if he hadn't died already, he'd live for sure? So, they were all still in WF and Lady's death was far off into the future, and Bran surviving wasn't in question... Even when Bran has his comatose encounter with the 3EC, he sees the aftermath of Lady's death - so her death didn't have an effect - he was still lying there, in a coma... Just nitpicking :wideeyed:

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The assault on the fist is in Chett's prologue to ASOS. No veteran speaks there about previous encounters. Then there is the Sam chapter in which he stabs the white walker when he remembers the assault. No mention there of previous encounters either.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but the only mention prior to the fist iirc is AGOT Mormont to Tyrion about the fisherfolk having seen white walkers on the shore. I'd say that in the AGOT prologue there is an awareness of 'other things' that are nasty in the woods. But in true horror fashion nobody defines the fear by giving it a name.

GRRM routinely restricts information on a need to know basis and clearly he wants to maintain the mystery :laugh:

In this case the text is ambiguous enough that I think you can draw your own conclusion. However we hear about white walkers before any confrontation with them(prologue being the exception, but Jeor never gets the details since Ned kills Gared). Its the wights that completely take everyone by surprise, and it is the wights that attack the Fist of the First men. So depending on how you interpret it the white walkers could be known as a winter phenomenon. However, the wights fire off the 'oh shit' alarm, since they match the old legends of 'wild hunts', 'long night' and Others being 'cold dead things' which we know the white walkers are not. After the wight attacks is when Jeor first uses the term "The Others".

Not clear cut either way in my opinion.