Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 then somehow the Children intercede...same again...they feel guilty for allowing his death, sort of like judging him for his crimes and the crimes of all First Men without hearing "his words"...a judgement without a trial. Oh, so you're going GRRM on us. I didn't pick up "his words" on the first pass. Perhaps that was the foundation for the NW's oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I got it from the Ned when he was explaining to Bran why it must be himself to do the beheading. That if you cannot do the beheading after hearing his words, perhaps the accused didn't deserve to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I got it from the Ned when he was explaining to Bran why it must be himself to do the beheading. That if you cannot do the beheading after hearing his words, perhaps the accused didn't deserve to die.So you're saying that the CoTF allowed the Other's to kill (by means of the sword break or whatever) the Last Hero. Then they had regrets and resurrected the Last Hero to hear his final words and used this to pass judgement on whether he got to live or die?Now my head is spinning :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I've tweaked my theory regarding the Last Hero. My current thought was that when he used his sword and it broke, that it broke during an actual sword fight with White Walkers, and he's killed. No change here, then somehow the Children intercede...same again...they feel guilty for allowing his death, sort of like judging him for his crimes and the crimes of all First Men without hearing "his words"...a judgement without a trial. So, the Children resurrect the Last Hero, thus robbing the spirit realm of his death...only life can pay for life, and all that jazz. Perhaps now every Stark that lives must also sacrifice another to pay for their own lives? That would explain Craster's sacrifices. It's a new idea and I'd like to explore the possibilities. What do you think?So far I'm just plain confused. Do you mean Craster's sons are the payment for the Starks' lives? And they then become WW? Or do you mean that the Starks were neglecting their sacrifices, hence the trouble? Also, if the CotF messed up in the first place, it doesn't seem fair that they pay for one human's life with another's :unsure:ETA: are you assuming Craster is related to the Starks? I know there are theories about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 My battery in my iPad went out so switching to iPhone...Like Ned said, the man passing judgement should also swing the sword, because if you cannot do that after hearing his words, perhaps he doesn't deserve to die. So, if the Children allowed the White Walkers to kill the Last Hero because they judged him guilty, and not only did they not hear his words, they didn't "swing the sword" themselves. There is a "code" that the old gods deem important and the Children didn't follow proper protocol, so they had no choice but to resurrect him and hear his words. When the Last Hero was able to plea his case, the only way to set things right was to pay for the life the Children took from "death"...the realm of the ravens and White Walkers. Craster was just adhering to this ancient pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 My battery in my iPad went out so switching to iPhone...Like Ned said, the man passing judgement should also swing the sword, because if you cannot do that after hearing his words, perhaps he doesn't deserve to die. So, if the Children allowed the White Walkers to kill the Last Hero because they judged him guilty, and not only did they not hear his words, they didn't "swing the sword" themselves. There is a "code" that the old gods deem important and the Children didn't follow proper protocol, so they had no choice but to resurrect him and hear his words.When the Last Hero was able to plea his case, the only way to set things right was to pay for the life the Children took from "death"...the realm of the ravens and White Walkers. Craster was just adhering to this ancient pact.I like it on two accounts. It helps to explain A Stark at Winterfell and keeps it separate from why Craster has to sacrifice his son's.Well done Feather :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I like it; but the litmus test is still pending the sun rising over the North Sea!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I never was a believer that Craster's sons became White Walkers. That's Black Crow's theory.Craster may think that what he's doing is necessary. It may be a ritual similar to taking communion...the body and blood of Christ and doing it in memory of him and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 It seems to me that in this scenario the CotF judged humanity en bloc guilty and decided to punish them by unleashing the WW, who then just kill people indiscriminately. Is that correct? Or do you think they decide in each individual case whenever the WW go after somene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker83 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 About the False Spring, what are the Heresy opinions about what cause it?If the reason that their is only two seasons, winter and summer, is magic, then did magic cause the False Spring?Maybe the False Spring occurred because of natural reasons, since apparently magic had decreased and the forces of ice and fire weren't doing much, some balanced was achieved and spring came.But then, it ended abruptly, I think that the reason was that the forces of fire or ice, maybe both made a move causing the return of only winter/summer seasons?Whatever the cause was, it happened 16 years ago, so I think that one of those key events that George mention is the reason as to what cause/ended the false spring. Also maybe that's why Rhaegar acted so rashly, because he knew or suspected what was happening and thought that to fight what was coming he needed to act fast. When did Craster started to give his son to the Others?Is their a thread in which the False Spring was discussed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 It seems to me that in this scenario the CotF judged humanity en bloc guilty and decided to punish them by unleashing the WW, who then just kill people indiscriminately. Is that correct? Or do you think they decide in each individual case whenever the WW go after somene?Someone can correct me on this but I don't think that the CoTF have control over the WW's.Pulling again from Little Wing's Link; The Theme's of ASoIaF Wiki say's this about the Other's:The Pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men was weakened by the emergence of the Others, an enigmatic and malevolent supernatural race from the furthermost north, who swept south into Westeros and caused great death and destruction, bringing about a night that lasted a generation and a winter that lasted decades. In the War for the Dawn, the Others were finally thrown back by the Children of the Forest and the First Men, through the combined use of dragonglass, fire and the magic of the old gods. The Children and the First Men then raised a vast Wall of ice and old magic from one coast of Northern Westeros to the other to bar their passage south should they come again.Before the cat calls start, I realize that this passage from Wiki is not Canon. However, it does suggest, that the Other's are an entity within itself and not controlled by the CoTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I never was a believer that Craster's sons became White Walkers. That's Black Crow's theory.Craster may think that what he's doing is necessary. It may be a ritual similar to taking communion...the body and blood of Christ and doing it in memory of him and all that.Are you indicating that Craster's sacrifices are not related to the CoTF resurrecting the Last Hero? Ignoring for the moment about what happens to Craster's son's after he puts them in the cold.Perhaps I misread your intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 It seems to me that in this scenario the CotF judged humanity en bloc guilty and decided to punish them by unleashing the WW, who then just kill people indiscriminately. Is that correct? Or do you think they decide in each individual case whenever the WW go after somene?Didn't they? Didn't the Children resort to drastic measures when the First Men invaded Westeros, burned weirwood trees, and killed Children? The Children used magic to sweep away the Arm of Dorne, and called their Hammer on the Neck. Was the word "called" actually used? Maybe the "hammer" opened the door to death or the realm of death, thus "inviting" death to enter the realm of men? I think the Children wanted to be rid of all men and did judge them all en masse, as you say. That was their first mistake against their old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker83 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 It seems to me that in this scenario the CotF judged humanity en bloc guilty and decided to punish them by unleashing the WW, who then just kill people indiscriminately. Is that correct? Or do you think they decide in each individual case whenever the WW go after somene? I always thought that the WW and Others were a faction of the CF and Wood Dancers(I think they aren't the same) that did not accepted the Pact between the CF and the First Men. So they sought power with the Cold Gods and became The Others/WW, then started again the war against the First Men. To me the reason that the CF didn't help men was because they didn't want to fight against those who once were their own race.Also why is The Last Hero called that, there must have been other people after him that could be considered heroes. I know that thanks to him the Long Night ended, but the others before him are called heroes, so why aren't the heroic figures after him(like the Stark and King of the Wildlings that fought against the Night King) considered heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Are you indicating that Craster's sacrifices are not related to the CoTF resurrecting the Last Hero? Ignoring for the moment about what happens to Craster's son's after he puts them in the cold.Perhaps I misread your intentions.I think Craster is observing a ritual that is a reenactment of the life sacrificed so that the Last Hero could live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 ETA: Also, some exciting news from GRRM.According to @Ran, the new novella will cover 80 years prior to Dunk & Egg. I'm cutting and pasting an excerpt that I posted on "The Princess and the Queen" post:80 years prior to D&E...let's itemize. D&E starts is 209AL; so let's subtract 80 and go back to 129AL: Death of the Last Dragon...Aegon. We may find out way ultimatley happened to all of the remaining dragons (how they died) and egg's.The conquering of Dorne and them entering the Seven Kingdoms.House Tyrell and how they come to control Highgarden.The First Blackfyre Rebellion.Do I dare say it; the introduction of a lady named Shiera Seastar and the man who loved (with 1,000 and 1 eyes).I don't know about the rest of you; but I'm heading tomorrow to Barnes & Noble and putting in my request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Page 5 puts us ahead of R+L = J :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Yes, this is a serious problem. Massless Others can't be expected to carry on physical fights with people, yet we see them do it.I suppose if they can levitate, they could have mass and yet not break the snow. But this verges on the ridiculous.I don't have another proposed solution, except to say that GRRM doesn't always think magic through particularly well, often resorting to saying that it should be "wondrous and unexplainable" rather than consistent and logical.(Well, actually, I do... but it would be a spoiler for this forum.) To chide in magic and science are sometimes one and the same.We may have to then join these two and conclude that the Others have the ability to manipulate the 3 states of matter as long as it is water based. If we have evidence that they can exists as mists,and that in the account from Royce that their swords were ice crystals and they themselves were ice; then it safe to say that they can exists as a solid,liquid and a gas. Therefore they can manipulate each state whenever they deem it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Page 5 puts us ahead of R+L = J :DGeez all mighty Gar Weg...didn't think the sun would ever rise on the west coast. Glad you're finally awake. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Regarding the Others and whether or not they have been active Beyond the Wall constantly or not for 8000 years. It is worth reading the chapter where Jon meets with Mance, Dalla and Val right before Stannis attacks. Mance explains to Jon the situation very clearly. The White Walkers are out there and they come in Winter. What makes it so bad this time is that unlike usual, the Thenns, Giants, Hornfoots, Ice River Clans and other far northern peoples have been unable to hold them back, the context is clear that normally it is not such a problem that these folk can't withstand but this time is different. So the White Walkers are always around during Winter Beyond the Wall, so it is ludicrous to think that the Rangers of the Watch have no idea about itRegarding Mormont, the context with which he speaks of WW sightings and White Shadows indicates that he is well aware that they exist. The impression one gets is that it's not that White Walkers have been sighted that he finds worrying, but how far south they and how early. He is also along with pretty much all the senior staff aware of what Craster is doing and the "cruel gods" that he serves.I don't think that anybody is suggesting that Mormont had encyclopedic knowledge of the Others, for starters he wouldn't have been so shocked to see the Wights and he would have burnt the bodies upon finding them or gone for the fire himself when they attacked. But I think it is pretty clear that the experience rangers including Mormont, Benjen, Qhorin, Mance and Gared all know that the White Walkers are not children's ghost stories, but very real and very present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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