Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Its worth bearing in mind the mathematics of the fight on the Fist. There were 200 brothers from Castle Black, expecting to meet with another 100 from the Shadow Tower to make 300. However Qhorin lost some men en route fighting Alfyn Crowkiller, and then he and others went off reconnoitring. Allowing for both there were probably no more than 250 of the Watch on the Fist when the Others rolled up. Some of those were Stewards and while expected to fight were not in the first line so to speak, which could well have taken the initial defenders down to 200.Conversely we don't know how many wights were attacking, other than a lot, but they were attacking out of the darkness and quite honestly 200 bowmen (remember Mormont kept a reserve) really isn't enough to stop the undead equivalent of a human wave attack, especially when the attackers are undismayed by casualties or even their own "wounds" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 In this case the text is ambiguous enough that I think you can draw your own conclusion. However we hear about white walkers before any confrontation with them. Its the wights that completely take everyone by surprise, and it is the wights that attack the Fist of the First men. So depending on how you interpret it the white walkers could be known as a winter phenomenon. However, the wights fire off the 'oh shit' alarm, since they match the old legends of 'wild hunts', 'long night' and Others being 'cold dead things' which we know the white walkers are not. After the wight attacks is when Jeor first uses the term "The Others".Not clear cut either way in my opinion.I'm happy to go with it being clear and particularly like the connection between wights and "cold dead things". Quite honestly, as we saw with Ser Waymar the Watch would have been happy enough to stand up to the White Walkers sword to sword; it was the cold dead things that frightened them and no wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 If the White Walkers are looking to take back souls to the death realm, and that only life can pay for life, then Ned sacrificing Lady was necessary for Bran to live.Nope, not buying that. Bran lived because he had the choice to fly or to die, and he chose flying. It may have come at a price that we don't know yet, but I very much doubt it was Lady's death. Even though the timing would kind of fit, if Bran had failed in his effort to fly, both of them would be dead, so the realm of dead is still losing out on a soul...[Hence I also am a firm believer that long seasons in ASIAF are caused by celestial phenomena and not magic, which some seems to think. (a second shattered moon is mentioned in a dragons origin story and shorter dayligh period was used as a sign that winter is coming).]You are aware that GRRM himself is amongst those who insist it's magic, right? At lest the imbalance is magical, we don't actually know what the base length of the seasons would be.As for the Watch, WW/Others:My impression is that the wildlings know exactly what the WW are and what they're capable of, but the most the NW was aware could only have been along the lines of what Will saw:"Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?"Experienced rangers might be more certain that something really is out there, and there's some exchange with the wildlings so some rumours come from there as well. But clearly no-one is certain enough about what's going on, or whether anything is going on at all, to actually dare to voice it.I also get the impression that it's not the WW rising wights that's new, it's the volume of it and the presistence of the WW. And it's definitely the WW/cold mists that are a threat - wights you can fight with fire, but, as Tormund asks, how do you fight against a mist?Anyway, I'll watch out for clues during the re-read.ETA: Yeah, it might make sense that the wights are included in 'Others'. Will watch out for that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelapsi Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Nothing to add to the conversation unfortunately, exept you guys are awesome ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I'm happy to go with it being clear and particularly like the connection between wights and "cold dead things". Quite honestly, as we saw with Ser Waymar the Watch would have been happy enough to stand up to the White Walkers sword to sword; it was the cold dead things that frightened them and no wonder.Hehe, I know you are. And we still haven't brought up a lot of the mutterings from Gared in defense of the idea. He clearly is afraid in the prologue, and believes in the old legends, yet he is a veteran of the Night's Watch. You'd think he's seen it all and would know better than to be afraid of fairy tails, but he clearly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I'm not disputing this, but I just want to point out that we can't really look at the wildlings or the Night's Watch as being unprepared. The wildlings know to burn their dead and the Watch calls for fire arrows on the Fist, so they're both aware of the wights' vulnerability to fire. I'm just trying to explain why I think that the wights aren't enough of a threat by themselves to cause the wildlings to band together to seek shelter south of the Wall, as was asserted upthread. I'm still certain that the Others are the true threat, not the wights.yep yep wasn't disputing this part of it either (although it definitely looks like I was) I'm more talking about just the hypothetical what would happen if/when the wights start marching south of the Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 So... the Wildlings and the Watch know that come winter, there will be some White Walkers ie, Craster's boys out and about - they can handle them, no biggie. But, the Others coming is heralded by wights shambling about, dead things in the water and those kinds of things... Gared's fear in the Prologue is a fear of something completely unexpected. He suspects it could be the Others but at the same time can't comprehend it. It's the cold that makes him think "Others" although he never says it out loud. The Prologue is full of mentions of cold winds. And it was still summer and the Wall is weeping at the time. So, the unnatural cold and the wights herald the Others, but White Walkers come with every winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 It's an interesting theory, but didn't we see in Tyrion's first POV in AGoT that he says to Jaime and Cersei, during their breakfast, that Luwin said Bran will live, that the worst was over and if he hadn't died already, he'd live for sure? So, they were all still in WF and Lady's death was far off into the future, and Bran surviving wasn't in question... Even when Bran has his comatose encounter with the 3EC, he sees the aftermath of Lady's death - so her death didn't have an effect - he was still lying there, in a coma... Just nitpicking :wideeyed:my theory about Lady isn't that she gave Bran life, but that she gave him his life back, ie. allowed him to wake from the coma. As a parallel (or rather a perpendicular?) we have Drogo... he gets life back, but he doesn't get HIS life back.* MMR says to Dany "now you see what life is truly worth" or whatever... but, if the direwolves are creatures of Magic instead of creatures of Nature, then maybe their lives are worth more, thus allowing Bran to have more life back then what Drogo received Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Quite honestly, as we saw with Ser Waymar the Watch would have been happy enough to stand up to the White Walkers sword to sword; it was the cold dead things that frightened them and no wonder.Errrm - I think it's obvious enough that Ser Waymar is not representative of the whole Watch... Will and Gared were plenty frightened enough before they even encountered either. And that was the WW's work, I'm pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Nothing to add to the conversation unfortunately, exept you guys are awesome ! :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 my theory about Lady isn't that she gave Bran life, but that she gave him his life back, ie. allowed him to wake from the coma. As a parallel (or rather a perpendicular?) we have Drogo... he gets life back, but he doesn't get HIS life back.* MMR says to Dany "now you see what life is truly worth" or whatever... but, if the direwolves are creatures of Magic instead of creatures of Nature, then maybe their lives are worth more, thus allowing Bran to have more life back then what Drogo receivedAh, that chapter with the 3EC is much more about him flying, making that conscious decision, and he finally has the courage to fly and not die when he remembers Ned's words. If Lady's death had something to do with it, then that takes away much from Bran making his decision to fly... It means Bran had nothing to do with it, and he did, he made a choice, on his own.ETA: And it takes place well after Lady's death, Bran sees the consequences in his "dream". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Errrm - I think it's obvious enough that Ser Waymar is not representative of the whole Watch... Will and Gared were plenty frightened enough before they even encountered either. And that was the WW's work, I'm pretty sure.Indeed, especially since (IIRC) this was Waymar's first ever ranging and that he had only been at the Wall for like 6 months by that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Just by way of adding a little thought to the mix. Whether or not you agree that Gilly's mother knew what she was talking about on the matter of Craster's sons there's no doubt that White Walkers have been visiting his place frequently. Gilly herself has seen them and comments about them coming more often; yet nary a whisper of wights being raised when they come knocking or of them shambling in their wake. So whatever the process involved it has to be a deliberate one and undertaken for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Ah, that chapter with the 3EC is much more about him flying, making that conscious decision, and he finally has the courage to fly and not die when he remembers Ned's words. If Lady's death had something to do with it, then that takes away much from Bran making his decision to fly... It means Bran had nothing to do with it, and he did, he made a choice, on his own.ETA: And it takes place well after Lady's death, Bran sees the consequences in his "dream".Ah, but he might not have even been dreaming until after Lady died...ETA: but alas, looks like we must agree to disagree... let's bury it with Lady and get back to the topic of dead people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Errrm - I think it's obvious enough that Ser Waymar is not representative of the whole Watch... Will and Gared were plenty frightened enough before they even encountered either. And that was the WW's work, I'm pretty sure.I think you're probably being a little harsh. They might well be daunted by these tall guys in the stealth armour, but they'd still fight, its the dead ones that add a whole new dimension of horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Ah, but he might not have even been dreaming until after Lady died...ETA: but alas, looks like we must agree to disagree... let's bury it with Lady and get back to the topic of dead peopleMayhaps, I still don't see it sorry... :)ETA: Oh, don't you worry about me, I am well capable to discuss both topics, as my post on "dead people" above suggests... Let the conversation go on unhindered, I say, oh, all mighty Hand :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Nothing to add to the conversation unfortunately, exept you guys are awesome !Ah come on, jump in, you know you want to. :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I think Osha was right - he has giant blood in him, so maybe he got the simple-mindedness from that.Or perhaps he had been warged by someone before...which shattered his mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 150 posts in 24 hours! :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 What if the WW are more like plants and creating Wrights is like sending seeds out to be pollinated? This is just their normal cycle of reproduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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