Heresy 39

[Little Wing]

Now remember he's over 100 years old and has spent more than half of them in the harshest climate in Westeros. By rights he should have turned up his toes years ago. Instead he's lived far beyond a normal span and he's telling Sam it was the Wall. He's dying now because the cold magic of the Wall is no longer prolonging his life.

The magic in the Wall prolongs life like the trees do in Bloodraven's case? Hm, so it is the magic of the Children in the Wall?

Or are there weirwood stumps in the base of the Wall? :D

[Tyryan Lannister]

a thread dealing with Euron being the Storm God, which I feel fits in with our thoughts on Ice being Air/Storms and the possibility of Euron having been visited by the 3EC

[Little Wing]

Yikes, no likes. Again. :crying:

[Melifeather]

It's an interesting theory, but didn't we see in Tyrion's first POV in AGoT that he says to Jaime and Cersei, during their breakfast, that Luwin said Bran will live, that the worst was over and if he hadn't died already, he'd live for sure? So, they were all still in WF and Lady's death was far off into the future, and Bran surviving wasn't in question... Even when Bran has his comatose encounter with the 3EC, he sees the aftermath of Lady's death - so her death didn't have an effect - he was still lying there, in a coma... Just nitpicking :wideeyed:

Nope, not buying that. Bran lived because he had the choice to fly or to die, and he chose flying. It may have come at a price that we don't know yet, but I very much doubt it was Lady's death. Even though the timing would kind of fit, if Bran had failed in his effort to fly, both of them would be dead, so the realm of dead is still losing out on a soul...

You are aware that GRRM himself is amongst those who insist it's magic, right? At lest the imbalance is magical, we don't actually know what the base length of the seasons would be.

As for the Watch, WW/Others:

My impression is that the wildlings know exactly what the WW are and what they're capable of, but the most the NW was aware could only have been along the lines of what Will saw:

Experienced rangers might be more certain that something really is out there, and there's some exchange with the wildlings so some rumours come from there as well. But clearly no-one is certain enough about what's going on, or whether anything is going on at all, to actually dare to voice it.

I also get the impression that it's not the WW rising wights that's new, it's the volume of it and the presistence of the WW. And it's definitely the WW/cold mists that are a threat - wights you can fight with fire, but, as Tormund asks, how do you fight against a mist?

Anyway, I'll watch out for clues during the re-read.

ETA: Yeah, it might make sense that the wights are included in 'Others'. Will watch out for that as well.

Ah, but he might not have even been dreaming until after Lady died...

ETA: but alas, looks like we must agree to disagree... let's bury it with Lady and get back to the topic of dead people

Sorry to beat this old dead horse, but I've been slaving away at my job and unable to comment until now....

If I remember correctly, the POV/chapter where Lady is killed is immediately before the Bran POV when he wakes up. And, if I remember correctly, it's been stated previously that the sidhe or shades from the death realm typically antagonize those that are dying? Now, I have to admit that I'm leaning more towards the 3EC being Bloodraven, but if he/she is a stand alone Morrigan creature, do they necessarily want Bran to live? The 3EC in Bran's dream seems pretty unconcerned and speaks to Bran quite flippantly. When Bran sees the different events unfolding around him to the east and west and south, he doesn't know why Sansa is crying, only that she is. She could be crying just about anything...not just Lady. I think the two chapters overlap each other enough that this is all happening at the same time. After Bran wakes up, he's so emaciated it's a wonder he didn't die. When Maester Luwin stated that Bran would live, that was weeks before he actually regained consciousness. I'm sure if the Lannisters and Catelyn were still at Winterfell all those weeks that he was in a coma, Luwin may have made his fears about the prognosis sound much more dire.

[Boromirofborg]

Hello, long time lurker.

I had a thought while reading Heresy 36 (or 37).

We were talking about the Dark, and how dark places can help awaken the third eye. (Bran, coma; Bloodraven, dungeons)

It was commented that it didn't work for Ned despite possible warg genes. Ned didn't have a dire wolf.

That triggered the thought for me, what if the Direwolf mom was meant for one of the Starks (Ned), instead of just the pups.

[nanother]

Sorry to beat this old dead horse, but I've been slaving away at my job and unable to comment until now....

If I remember correctly, the POV/chapter where Lady is killed is immediately before the Bran POV when he wakes up. And, if I remember correctly, it's been stated previously that the sidhe or shades from the death realm typically antagonize those that are dying? Now, I have to admit that I'm leaning more towards the 3EC being Bloodraven, but if he/she is a stand alone Morrigan creature, do they necessarily want Bran to live? The 3EC in Bran's dream seems pretty unconcerned and speaks to Bran quite flippantly. When Bran sees the different events unfolding around him to the east and west and south, he doesn't know why Sansa is crying, only that she is. She could be crying just about anything...not just Lady. I think the two chapters overlap each other enough that this is all happening at the same time. After Bran wakes up, he's so emaciated it's a wonder he didn't die. When Maester Luwin stated that Bran would live, that was weeks before he actually regained consciousness. I'm sure if the Lannisters and Catelyn were still at Winterfell all those weeks that he was in a coma, Luwin may have made his fears about the prognosis sound much more dire.

Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't add up to me. Mind you, Martin's magic often doesn't add up, so that's not saying much. I think my main reason for rejecting this theory is that it lessens the impact of both Bran's decision and Lady's death. Bran lives, seemingly thanks to his own determination and hard work. Lady died a pointless death at the hand of a man whom she trusted and who should have known better. Making the latter the reason of the former is IMO cheapening both, and thus isn't something a good writer would do.

[Little Wing]

Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't add up to me. Mind you, Martin's magic often doesn't add up, so that's not saying much. I think my main reason for rejecting this theory is that it lessens the impact of both Bran's decision and Lady's death. Bran lives, seemingly thanks to his own determination and hard work. Lady died a pointless death at the hand of a man whom she trusted and who should have known better. Making the latter the reason of the former is IMO cheapening both, and thus isn't something a good writer would do.

:agree: I'd like your post, nanother, if I could...

[Mace Cooterian]

@ Mace

I like your theory about the Wall acting as a pressure barrier. I'm curious how the Wall weeping at certain times would fit into this, because it seems to me like there is a connection to be made there.

@Toccs. After going back over my Thermodynamic explanation of how the wall repels or keeps the WW's at bay; I think I owe you a different answer on the pressure/temperature aspect and how it might pertain to the wall weeping. So let's try this again:

As the WW's approach it is speculated that the temperature drops. If pressure were to also decrease with this approach, the the solid state of water (ice crystals in the air) would change state to a liquid; even if temperature was falling. Hence, the wall would weep.

I'm not sure I like this idea because IIRC, doesn't both sides of the wall weep at times? I guess this could be explained with ice crystals on both sides of the wall.

[mrbutabara]

Regarding the idea that the new threat aren't the WW, but the wights; perhaps its because magic is coming back. The dragons being born and the dead coming back (wights/uncat) are just symptoms of the same thing.

[nanother]

:agree: I'd like your post, nanother, if I could...

Thanks, I'll consider it liked :) Replies are better than likes anyway :cool4:

(as it happens, I can't 'like' either but I believe it's just my computer acting up)

ETA: what I meant is I can't like OR see likes

[Mace Cooterian]

Another thought I had while exploring the Thermodynamic properties of the Wall and the White Walker was how to control the changing states of water (vapor, liquid and solid). In order to do so you would need control over the concepts of temperature and pressure. Now someone challenged me on another post about this concept saying that this is fantasy and magic is included. I agree. However, Westeros is still a functioning civiliazation on a world that certainly resembles our planet and there laws of physics that you can not get around. Take fire for example. In Westeros, if you did not have oxygen, I doubt that you would have fire; and thus nothing but hot air blowing out of a dragon's mouth. So the same principle I think would apply with what is going on at the Wall and North of it. Once again, magic is still involved, which I have no idea how to explain; but temperature and pressure would be needed to influence state changes of water.

So back to how you would control temperature and pressure. The thought crossed my mind to relate these two laws to some of the Gods we have floating around. Let's start with pressure (atmospheric or barometric). Barometric as we all now comes into play with the weather (low and high pressure fronts). So who better to control the weather than....The Storm God.

I'm skipping temperature for a moment to talk about water. This one is easy....enter The Drowned God. Now for temperature. For the lack of anything better....CAUTION: CRACK POT APPROACHING....how about The Great Other. The White Walkers seem to have a good handle on the three states of water as we have reading of them in mist form (gas), in corporeal ice form (solid) and a pool of water (liquid).

The one thing that would be interesting to factor in is how the CoTF used their magic in a way to control the elements through the Old Gods (Storm, Drowned and Great Other) to shatter the Arm of Dorne and to summon the hammer to smash the First Men @ the Neck.

[nanother]

Gosh, I'll have to refresh my knowledge of physics... the things I do for Heresy :D

[Melifeather]

When I read the 3EC talking to Bran while he was falling and he says, "say, got any corn?" I always picture Bugs Bunny saying, "eh, what's up Doc?".

[Mace Cooterian]

When I read the 3EC talking to Bran while he was falling and he says, "say, got any corn?" I always picture Bugs Bunny saying, "eh, what's up Doc?".

So the 3EC is Bugs Bunny and Bran is Elmer Fudd??? :laugh:

[wolfmaid7]

Another thought I had while exploring the Thermodynamic properties of the Wall and the White Walker was how to control the changing states of water (vapor, liquid and solid). In order to do so you would need control over the concepts of temperature and pressure. Now someone challenged me on another post about this concept saying that this is fantasy and magic is included. I agree. However, Westeros is still a functioning civiliazation on a world that certainly resembles our planet and there laws of physics that you can not get around. Take fire for example. In Westeros, if you did not have oxygen, I doubt that you would have fire; and thus nothing but hot air blowing out of a dragon's mouth. So the same principle I think would apply with what is going on at the Wall and North of it. Once again, magic is still involved, which I have no idea how to explain; but temperature and pressure would be needed to influence state changes of water.

So back to how you would control temperature and pressure. The thought crossed my mind to relate these two laws to some of the Gods we have floating around. Let's start with pressure (atmospheric or barometric). Barometric as we all now comes into play with the weather (low and high pressure fronts). So who better to control the weather than....The Storm God.

I'm skipping temperature for a moment to talk about water. This one is easy....enter The Drowned God. Now for temperature. For the lack of anything better....CAUTION: CRACK POT APPROACHING....how about The Great Other. The White Walkers seem to have a good handle on the three states of water as we have reading of them in mist form (gas), in corporeal ice form (solid) and a pool of water (liquid).

The one thing that would be interesting to factor in is how the CoTF used their magic in a way to control the elements through the Old Gods (Storm, Drowned and Great Other) to shatter the Arm of Dorne and to summon the hammer to smash the First Men @ the Neck.

Me like :cheers: It occurs to me that whether fantasy or real some parallels remain the same. Some act of reciprocity must have taken place which is, what did the COTF offer the gods to cause the these calamities?

In ancient and modern civilizations people would offer a sacrifice of some kind and a sacrifice/sacrifices can take many forms. For example, worship,blood sacrifices the promise of a male child from each generation.So we must ask what we think the god's required most from the COTF.

Edit: spelling

[Toccs]

Not when said army of undead can't move faster than a walk, doesn't use any sort of weapon other than their hands and goes up in flames like a 2 week old Christmas tree soaked in gasoline when you so much as light a match within 20 feet of them. The wights simply aren't any kind of threat to a sizeable group of people with entrenched fortifications and a ready supply of food, water and fuel.

Their only real tactical advantage in a fight is the surprise factor when a seemingly mortal wound doesn't faze them at all. Once you know that stabbing them in the belly won't stop them, you concentrate on keeping your distance and taking away their mobility. If you know they're vulnerable to fire, you can't possibly lose because humans invented fire arrows ages ago.

They're simply not a credible threat to the wildlings and so it must be the Others they are running from, not the wights.

You realize that what you are describing is exactly the situation at the Fist of the First Men, including entrenched fortifications and fire arrows, and the Watch simply couldn't hold them back.

[Black Crow]

The magic in the Wall prolongs life like the trees do in Bloodraven's case? Hm, so it is the magic of the Children in the Wall?

Or are there weirwood stumps in the base of the Wall? :D

Nah. Aemon stresses the cold

I also have to say that I've never been sold on the idea of weirwood stumps in the base of the Wall - a 300 mile long line of weirwood trees or weirwood groves?

[Black Crow]

You realize that what you are describing is exactly the situation at the Fist of the First Men, including entrenched fortifications and fire arrows, and the Watch simply couldn't hold them back.

Exactly so, which is what my mathematical post was about, delivered not as a theory but by way of explaining (1) the defeat f the Watch, (2) what was said about how the Thenns and the other northern Wildlings couldn't stand against an enemy that sent their own dead against them, and (3) Old Nan's story about the White Walkers sitting on their pale horses leading armies of the dead.

Of themselves the White Walkers are just dangerous bogeymen in the woods, give them an army of wights and they're unstoppable.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

If the wall keeps him alive how come everyone isn't affected? Why aren't there a crapload of 100 year old guys there? This seems like one of those classic GRRM misdirection deals. I'm wracking my brain for a different angle.

[Black Wolf Smith]

150 posts in 24 hours!

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

And the server went down for at least 2 or 3 hours, as I know I had a couple things I wanted to say last night and got the boot.

Regarding the idea that the new threat aren't the WW, but the wights; perhaps its because magic is coming back. The dragons being born and the dead coming back (wights/uncat) are just symptoms of the same thing.

Nice point.

(as it happens, I can't 'like' either but I believe it's just my computer acting up)

No they have disabled that, again.

Gosh, I'll have to refresh my knowledge of physics... the things I do for Heresy :D

Well there are a few heretics that will teach you, but they have not been around much lately.