Heresy 39

[Little Wing]

150 posts in 24 hours!

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

Heresy is in the air, it flies with the Crow...

[Teak]

Or perhaps he had been warged by someone before...which shattered his mind?

Anythings possible. But who would do that? I had the impression that he was born that way.

[Where Boars Glow]

Anythings possible. But who would do that? I had the impression that he was born that way.

Who knows how far back the Starks ability to warg goes....or even someone like 6skins beyond the wall. Maybe the one who taught sixskins...i forgot his name

[EmmaoftheCanals]

:commie: is that a little communist flag?

[Teak]

Who knows how far back the Starks ability to warg goes....or even someone like 6skins beyond the wall. Maybe the one who taught sixskins...i forgot his name

True, but do we know how old Hodor is? From reading, he seems maybe 30 at the most. I know in the show, he is alot older. They talk of him as if he is a boy, but of course Luwin later says something to the effect that he is a man to the Walders...at any rate Ned is mid 30's, yes? Do you get the impression that he is older than Ned was when he died?

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Anythings possible. But who would do that? I had the impression that he was born that way.

Yeah, now I thought a bit more about it, I also think it's implied in the text that he's always been that way.

I think I was reluctant to believe it because his linguistic situation just reminded me so much of Broca's famous "Tan" patient, so called because the only word he could say was "tan".

[Tyryan Lannister]

:commie: is that a little communist flag?

Yeah, but we've co-opted the emoticon as our symbol (ie going against the orthodox, as the Communist Manifesto was during it's original publication in the mid 1800s)

[Where Boars Glow]

True, but do we know how old Hodor is? From reading, he seems maybe 30 at the most. I know in the show, he is alot older. They talk of him as if he is a boy, but of course Luwin later says something to the effect that he is a man to the Walders...at any rate Ned is mid 30's, yes? Do you get the impression that he is older than Ned was when he died?

I have always had that impression but i suppose nothing textually to really back it up.

[Toccs]

I just have trouble seeing the wights as any type of real threat. I mean, sure, they're strong and practically indestructible, but they're also slow, clumsy, dumb, have no ability to improvise or strategize their attack and they're ridiculously vulnerable to fire. Their only real strength is their numbers, which at this time are indeterminate. They are most effective in an ambush situation among unprepared foes, as we see in the case of Jafer and Othor and in front of the Children's cave. We're told in the series that well-fortified defenders can hold off ten or more times their own numbers of attackers, so how much more so must that hold true for wights? Fifty? One hundred?

You have trouble seeing an inexhaustible army of undead who don't feel pain, will continue moving forward despite severe injuries and all share a single purpose as a real threat?

That's not even mentioning how any defenders that they kill will then be raised to join the army.

[Where Boars Glow]

You have trouble seeing an inexhaustible army of undead who don't feel pain, will continue moving forward despite severe injuries and all share a single purpose as a real threat?

That's not even mentioning how any defenders that they kill will then be raised to join the army.

Yes i also think it is impossible to argue this as a threat...in fact I think the biggest threat to the WW would be outpacing the cold moving south and having there soldiers start to rot away to quickly.

[Toccs]

Yes i also think it is impossible to argue this as a threat...in fact I think the biggest threat to the WW would be outpacing the cold moving south and having there soldiers start to rot away to quickly.

Really? Have you guys ever seen Zombie movies, cause you know . . the Zombies usually end up winning. :P

[Where Boars Glow]

Really? Have you guys ever seen Zombie movies, cause you know . . the Zombies usually end up winning. :P

Correct...i was agreeing zombies...big threat.....the problem is the warmer it is...the faster they decompose. :)

[wolfmaid7]

If so, perplexing that being stabbed with dragonglass would be much problem. Their hypothesized state-manipulation power seem at a bit of a loss to reverse liquification.

It's not that the Other who died was taken off guard. He was approached by Sam -- not a sprinter -- not a skilled combatant -- but in fact a slow-moving ball of fear whose eyes were closed. So the Other had plenty of time to see the approaching dragonglass, shift to some other state of matter, and thus protect itself.

No such event occurred. Instead, it melted and died.

In this regard, the nearest fictional parallel of the Others would seem to be the Wicked Witch of the West; they even shriek in a similar fashion. (Could the Crone/Morrigan have opened a door to Oz, and let flying monkeys through?)

It's largely a moot point, though. The Others have, in quite a few thousands of pages so far, shown little inclination actually to do anything. Primarily, they strike me as slackers. Two appearances in all the books is not much of a work ethic. I'm also not clear how their eyes are blue, when they've plainly been hanging around getting stoned all day. I feel Mr. Martin should dock their wages and possibly even give them the sack.

There's also the problem of how they are going to pose any sort of threat to a world well aware of their vulnerability to dragonglass.

Consider: Ten thousand archers armed with half a million dragonglass-tipped arrows would suffice to deal with a great whopping massive number of Others (whose headcount, as noted, is not likely very high in the first place), all without risking a single human life.

Put the archers on any elevated, geographically convenient spot facing a choke point through which the Others must come, such as the causeway at Moat Cailin; mix in another half million fire arrows to deal with wights; and the whole problem is dealt with before noon.

The powers of Westeros can then yawn, stretch, and head out for a hearty brunch, there to argue about which Targaryen bastards are secret Starks.

So the question becomes: How is Mr. Martin going to empower the Others/fairies, and their wight armies, to put up an adequate struggle?

You bring up an interesting point and the only answer i have to this, is a theory that i had on H36 i believe. 1st law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed ;it can only change different form.Magic is nothing but energy and as i believe the others are magical beings themselves, they can alter matter around them.Thus are subject to the same rule of magic/science. Therefore the dragonglass i've long held believed doesn't actually kill them it just causes them to change state ( solid to liquid) just as was suggested the wall may be another barrier that causes another shift in state ( solid to gas).

Note: Jon's dream of him being on the wall in what seems to be dragon-glass armor the others are repelled by it( barrier) not weapon.So to answer you,i don't believe dragon glass can kill them ,it may slow them down by "forcing" them to change state and by being a " wyurd"( warding/barrier).

I don't think the others can be killed per-say,i don't think that would even be a good idea. They are a different life-form that has a purpose.

[Moonfox]

They had a horde of archers lobbing fire arrows at them on the fist and the wights just kept coming and coming. Kinda like a horde of little undead energizer bunnies

[Capon Breath]

In a fight being fitter than your opponent is a huge advantage. NEVER getting tired is an unimaginably big advantage. Zombie power!

[wolfmaid7]

Hrm. I'm not a physics expert but afaict water (constant temperature) under low pressure turns to mist (vapour, boil) and under high pressure would ultimately solidify. Raised pressure would raise the temperature, though. Regardless, any pressure change large enough to cause a transformation of water states would kill humans pretty darn quick.

I also believe that science fiction writer GRRM wouldn't dare to mess with such things.

[Hence I also am a firm believer that long seasons in ASIAF are caused by celestial phenomena and not magic, which some seems to think. (a second shattered moon is mentioned in a dragons origin story and shorter daylight period was used as a sign that winter is coming).]

Science /Magic is a perceptive of the civilization. For instance magic may deem the WW as life forms from the world in between; while science may label them interdenominational beings.Drop Galileo and Lauren Coleman( Cryptozoologists) in ASOFAI and i'm sure they'll have scientific explanations for what's going on.

[Where Boars Glow]

In a fight being fitter than your opponent is a huge advantage. NEVER getting tired is an unimaginably big advantage. Zombie power!

Plus every battle you win.....is another field of new soldiers for the WW. Eventually they wear you down with attrition.

[Little Wing]

Just stumbled on an interesting thread. Most of the Heretics know the subject matter well, but maybe it will be interesting for others (heh). There are some interesting posts, and Lummel quoted Ran on things interesting for Heresy:

"...at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil.

He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes."

[alienarea]

Just by way of adding a little thought to the mix. Whether or not you agree that Gilly's mother knew what she was talking about on the matter of Craster's sons there's no doubt that White Walkers have been visiting his place frequently. Gilly herself has seen them and comments about them coming more often; yet nary a whisper of wights being raised when they come knocking or of them shambling in their wake. So whatever the process involved it has to be a deliberate one and undertaken for a reason.

So both women have seen the White Walkers. Did they remain unharmed because they were

a) hiding

B) protected by Craster's place

c) women

?

[Lummel]

Ha! I remember that thread Little Wing...

Actually I've probably quoted that piece on GRRM and the others in one of the earlier heresies too if you go back far enough :laugh:

To me this seems one of the interesting elements of GRRM's need to know policy on releasing information to us poor readers. He has been so careful in giving us a sinister, threatening vibe to the white walkers, yet we know he is not interested in black/white dark lordy stories. Clearly the reveal of the motivations of the white walkers is designed to be a shock or at least a big surprise for the reader.

My suspicion is that is going to be more than just 'well from the white walkers POV what they are doing is good'. But then that's what heresy is mostly about ;)