nanother Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Apologies. I misunderstood the point you were driving at.Heh, can't blame you, I wasn't very clear stating it...Anyhow, that's an interesting point about the events of 16 years ago...I guess it's common knwledge that they're important, but I don't think I've ever seen it stated that they're the key to the future. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I had never heard that, thanks! I think it isn't helping my headache, though. Abduction - AGOT. Great, so not alot to go on.Let's just say it was a teaser. It's a really good read and that was my intent and I think also the intent of Little Wing for sharing the link.More from the Wiki time line: Robert's Rebellion 281AL The Year of False Spring: Lord Whent holds a great Tourney at Harrenhal, where Prince Rhaegar distinguishes himself in battle, but names Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, who is betrothed to Robert Baratheon, as the Queen of Love and Beauty rather than his own wife Elia. Eddard Stark meets and befriends Howland Reed of Greywater Watch. The band of outlaws called the Kingswood Brotherhood is defeated by a royal force commanded by Arthur Dayne; during that battle a young squire, Jaime Lannister, distinguishes himself and is knighted, later he becomes a member of the Kingsguard and is disinherited from his father. Tywin Lannister resigns the Handship in angry protest and returns to Casterly Rock. 282-283 AL Robert's Rebellion: Rhaegar Targaryen abducts Lyanna Stark. Lyanna's brother and father demand that Aerys discipline his son, but instead the Mad King kills them both. Aerys demands the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark from their ward, Jon Arryn. Instead, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Baratheon raise the standard of rebellion. Robert claims the throne through his descent from his great-grandfather, Aegon V and thus Robert's Rebellion, also called the War of the Usurper, begins. Hoster Tully agrees to join the rebellion as well. The Tyrells remain loyal to the king and besiege Robert's castle of Storm's End, held by his brother Stannis. The Hand of the King, Jon Connington, is defeated in the Battle of the Bells and is sent into exile in the Free Cities. The rebel army defeats the royalists at the Battle of the Trident. Prince Rhaegar is killed. The Lannisters apparently march to the aid of King Aerys, but instead turn against him and sack the city. King Aerys is killed by Jaime Lannister. Princess Elia Martell and her children, Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen, are brutally murdered by Lannister bannermen, causing a rift between Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Ned Stark and Howland Reed defeat the Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy holding Lyanna prisoner, only to find her dying. Robert becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms and marries Cersei Lannister. Ned returns home to Winterfell with his bastard son, Jon Snow. Loyal Targaryen retainers carry Aerys' two youngest children, Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys, to safety in the Free Cities. King Robert's Reign 289AL The Greyjoy Rebellion: Balon Greyjoy names himself King of the Iron Islands. He is defeated and two of his sons are killed. King Robert accepts his surrender and Balon's remaining son, Theon Greyjoy, becomes a ward and hostage of Eddard Stark. 297AL Magister Illyrio Mopatis of Pentos invites Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen to stay in his manse and offers to help them reclaim their throne. The Hand of the King, Jon Arryn, discovers that the heirs to the Iron Throne are bastards and is killed with poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 So Aegon is going to abduct Arya? :dunno:I would say that would be story line that GRRM heeded story development to be not predictable :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Smith Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Perhaps I'm missing something, but I've never understood how guest right would help out the Last Hero. Guest right only protects the one receiving it from harm directed toward their person by the host. It doesn't protect someone else from invading and killing the person who received guest right.I guess the easy way to explain it is this.The CoTF let in the Last Hero. He became under their protection. So if the Others wanted him, they would have to go thru the CoTF to get to him. It would start a war between the Others and CoTF.ETA: They would have to give him departing gift, for him not to be under their protection. In short They became his guardians, and the Others had to repect it, or risk a second war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonNonRegis Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 If they are gaslike they shouldn't be able to wield swords of ice or dissolve into fluids like the one slain by Sam => squid law!Yes, this is a serious problem. Massless Others can't be expected to carry on physical fights with people, yet we see them do it.I suppose if they can levitate, they could have mass and yet not break the snow. But this verges on the ridiculous.I don't have another proposed solution, except to say that GRRM doesn't always think magic through particularly well, often resorting to saying that it should be "wondrous and unexplainable" rather than consistent and logical. (Well, actually, I do... but it would be a spoiler for this forum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonNonRegis Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 The Wiki timeline states that the beginning of Robert's Rebellion was when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. So back to Little Wing's link, "key event" of ASoIaF fall in the events from Rhaegar's aduction of Lyanna to the start of AGoT.It does say that and certainly the belief that that event happened triggered Brandon Stark's ride to the Red Keep, and in turn, the civil war that resulted in putting Robert on the throne.However -- and this seems appropriate for a Heresy thread -- I think you should be wary of that Wiki entry. There is no support for many of its statements in the actual text.That she was abducted seems particularly doubtful (although emotionally convenient for Robert Baratheon).There is not even any evidence that they left together from any place and went to any other place -- whether Lyanna was coerced or happy to go.Actually... never, in the whole course of the series, is there clear evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were even alone in the same room together for five minutes, at any time in their lives. This comes as quite a shock to those who have convinced themselves that Jon must be Rhaegar's son by Lyanna and the heir to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Yeah, the link to the wiki page has some tidbits from GRRM all in one place, I'm glad it proved useful. The thing that stands out to me in predicting the future from the past, ie the events from the abduction to the beginning of AGoT, is the murder of Elia's children - a girl and a boy... Tommen and Myrcella? :crying:Gendry becoming Robert 2.0? Arya being his Lyanna? And Edric Dayne kidnaps her... Or, the one that gets abducted is Sansa? *head spinning* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 However -- and this seems appropriate for a Heresy thread -- I think you should be wary of that Wiki entry. There is no support for many of its statements in the actual text. :agree: Always be wary of the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Always be wary of the wiki.That's true, but they say "according to Martin", and this interview from 2001. is put as the source. Don't have the time to read it now, so you guys have fun with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Yes, this is a serious problem. Massless Others can't be expected to carry on physical fights with people, yet we see them do it.I suppose if they can levitate, they could have mass and yet not break the snow. But this verges on the ridiculous.snipMassless Others carrying on physical fights is no basis for a functioning physical universe. Which makes me think of:"Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Ah, okay, browsed the interview and found the exact quote:In my series in particular, much of the key to the future lies in the past and the successive revelations of what happened 16 years ago and what we think is true maybe isn't necessarily true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 However -- and this seems appropriate for a Heresy thread -- I think you should be wary of that Wiki entry. There is no support for many of its statements in the actual text.Couldn't agree with you more. But as I'm getting ready to type my next sentence, Little Wing's post's this (...and I really wish she would quit warging me... :rolleyes: )That's true, but they say "according to Martin", and this interview from 2001. is put as the source. Don't have the time to read it now, so you guys have fun with it.To summarize, I tend to put a lot of credance on items that begin with "GRRM said this" or "GRRM said that". If I was a diligent person and wanted to question whether GRRM suggested that the abduction of Lyanna started the 16 year pre-frenzy, I'd go to So Spake Martin (SSM) and wade through the updates. But I shaint.Abduction, missing, ran away...whatever you want to call it...caused Robert to rebell and as you have aptly noted, sent Brandon to his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Ah, okay, browsed the interview and found the exact quote:In my series in particular, much of the key to the future lies in the past and the successive revelations of what happened 16 years ago and what we think is true maybe isn't necessarily true. Wow Little Wing; it was almost like I knew what you were going to say. You really need to clean up after yourself when you warg me like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Wow Little Wing; it was almost like I knew what you were going to say. You really need to clean up after yourself when you warg me like that.Well, I am a Witch, aren't I... gonna have to change my title into Greenseer soon :drunk:ETA: Also, some exciting news from GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Wait...dragons? Wasn't it going t be wolves? :unsure: :worried: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Wait...dragons? Wasn't it going t be wolves? :unsure: :worried:Yeah, I know... guess a longer wait for the she-wolves is coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Oh well, nothing wrong with dragons either :cool4: can't wait to read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Well, I am a Witch, aren't I... gonna have to change my title into Greenseer soon :drunk:ETA: Also, some exciting news from GRRM.The Princess and the Queen??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I've tweaked my theory regarding the Last Hero. My current thought was that when he used his sword and it broke, that it broke during an actual sword fight with White Walkers, and he's killed. No change here, then somehow the Children intercede...same again...they feel guilty for allowing his death, sort of like judging him for his crimes and the crimes of all First Men without hearing "his words"...a judgement without a trial. So, the Children resurrect the Last Hero, thus robbing the spirit realm of his death...only life can pay for life, and all that jazz. Perhaps now every Stark that lives must also sacrifice another to pay for their own lives? That would explain Craster's sacrifices. It's a new idea and I'd like to explore the possibilities. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I've tweaked my theory regarding the Last Hero. My current thought was that when he used his sword and it broke, that it broke during an actual sword fight with White Walkers, and he's killed. No change here, then somehow the Children intercede...same again...they feel guilty for allowing his death, sort of like judging him for his crimes and the crimes of all First Men without hearing "his words"...a judgement without a trial. So, the Children resurrect the Last Hero, thus robbing the spirit realm of his death...only life can pay for life, and all that jazz. Perhaps now every Stark that lives must also sacrifice another to pay for their own lives? That would explain Craster's sacrifices. It's a new idea and I'd like to explore the possibilities. What do you think?I like the life for a life concept of the CoTF resurrecting the Last Hero. Sort of UnCat and Bonderric sort of resurrection I suppose. I'm inclined to follow the Craster sacrifice as the payment; leaving the "every Stark at Winterfell" related to the First Pact between the CoTF and the First Men. Once the Other's came in and destroyed (for the lack of a better word) the first pact; the second Pact was thence sealed with the sacrifice for the life of the Last Hero.I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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