Heresy 39

[Teak]

The (almost) closing words of aCoK (when Bran looks back at Winterfell for the last time).

Reminded me of what he's going to be doing three books down the line...

On a non-heretic side note: was Hodor born the way he is, or dit he suffer brain damage resulting in some kind of Broca's afasia and other symptoms of simletonicity? I kind remember anything in the text pointing to either option...

I think Osha was right - he has giant blood in him, so maybe he got the simple-mindedness from that.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Mormont never talks of the Others, which once again suggests that he knew a lot more than he admitted and that at the very least he knew he wasn't dealing with some mythical creatures of legend from the distant past, but an all too real foe who were indeed out there.

[alienarea]

I'm very inclined to go with the first option given their association with the cold winds and mists. Even if they were of the same molecular structure as snow they would still have the weight to break the crust - snow isn't exactly light.

Its the Storm God/Goddess of the Wind who they serve, not the Drowned one.

If they are gaslike they shouldn't be able to wield swords of ice or dissolve into fluids like the one slain by Sam => squid law!

[Black Crow]

On a non-heretic side note: was Hodor born the way he is, or dit he suffer brain damage resulting in some kind of Broca's afasia and other symptoms of simletonicity? I kind remember anything in the text pointing to either option...

There's no mention of anything in the books. Old Nan says his real name is Walder, but otherwise we know nothing else and given the absence of any explanation for his condition, even a one-liner saying he got hit on the head, I can only assume he was born that way.

[Teak]

He certainly knew what Craster was up to. Yet he says to Sam "we should have remembered" concerning the real purpose of the NW. I think he knew but didn't want to sound crazy or be ridiculed by his men.

[Capon Breath]

At a more prosaic level there's also Mormont's remark to Tyrion about fishermen reporting White Walkers on the shore near Eastwatch in a very matter of fact way, more suggestive of not seeing them so far south at this time of year rather than bar the gates and lock up your daughters because the Others are coming, and his grumbling to Jon about White Shadows in the woods.

Sorry Black Crow, I've seen this view expressed a few times and it has never been challenged and seems to have become gospel as a result. I'm just reading that chapter now and I completely disagree that this is the nature of that exchange.

"The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you my lord, th darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, dire wolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

"In your dreams, " Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormons was deaf to the edge in his voice . "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

" Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the shadow tower in numbers far greater than ever before. They are running my lord... But running from what? Lord Mormont moved to th window and stad out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the long night falls, only the Nights Watch will stand between the alm and th darkness that sweeps from the North. The gods help us if we a not ready."

I don't think there is any way that can be interpreted as a matter of fact reference. It's the veteran Lord Commander getting desperate and emotional about the impending danger of which the WW at Eastwatch are 1 of many signs.

[Black Crow]

If they are gaslike they shouldn't be able to wield swords of ice or dissolve into fluids like the one slain by Sam => squid law!

Ah but I'm not looking at gas but vapour and yes while vapour usually means water wapour it aint the same as being aquatic in origin. Remember that there's always water vapour in the air - unless you're in the middle of some particularly dry desert - so if they are indeed arial; spirits of the air, as referenced by the Rev Kirk then they may well be capable of manipulating that vapour.

[Capon Breath]

double post

[Black Crow]

@Capon Breath & Unwashed (I'm glad you posted in that order cos unwashed capon breath would be a bit gross):

I don't deny that Mormont is troubled and worried - and again when he complains to Jon of the White Shadows in the woods. My point is that this is not the reaction of a man learning of the sudden appearance of an ancient enemy believed to have been gone 8,000 since. Its the reaction of a man facing an enemy that is all too real and familiar.

[Black Crow]

Personally, I believe the two most telling pieces of evidence we have to suggest that the Others really haven't been seen in several thousands of years (depending on where you stand on the timeline thing) is that 1) everyone in the story, multiple sources, claim that no one living has seen an Other and 2) the Night's Watch specifically has a warning system set up to warn the black brothers about contact with the Others, the three horn blasts, and every single one of them knows what it means, even though, as Sam states, the three blasts hasn't been blown in thousands of years.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Tommy Patterson email because as I said in a post on the previous heresy that description is all about character and very different in style to the detailed physical description given in the AGoT prologue.

As to the quoted bit of your post, this is my point about Mormont not referring to the Others. He's not talking about legends but something all too real which has been encountered before in the recent past.

[Black Crow]

Yes but to him they're White Walkers NOT the Others.

And with that to bed, speak about fast moving threads...

[nanother]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Mormont never talks of the Others, which once again suggests that he knew a lot more than he admitted and that at the very least he knew he wasn't dealing with some mythical creatures of legend from the distant past, but an all too real foe who were indeed out there.

He calls them Others on one occasion that I could remember:

“You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead.” He chewed and swallowed. “I will not

sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night’s Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there. I mean to command them myself.”

And it doesn't sound like he has the slightest idea what he's up against :rolleyes:

ETA: regarding his reaction t the WW sightings, I pretty much agree with Capon Breath - but then I guess we just have to agree to disagree, seeing that we've been through all this before...

[Teak]

Alright, I have a question. Apologies if it has been asked 1000 times. They say the Last Hero ended the long night, right? Any idea how? There had to have been tons of wights after a long winter like that. One man and one sword - did he kill them all one by one, or did he do something in one fluid motion that would make "Lightbringer" an appropriate name? Did some wights & Others retreat to fight another day? Are some of them hunting now?

Appreciate your thoughts.

[Mace Cooterian]

Here's a nice wiki page. Should we spice it up with heresy stuff? :devil:

Thanks for sharing the link Little Wing. I only made through the first section "Magic and Realism" and found this:

According to Martin, much of the key to Ice and Fire's story future lies sixteen years in the fictional past of which each volume reveals more.^[7] Events planned from the beginning are foreshadowed, although Martin heeds story developments to not be predictable.^[11] The viewpoint characters, who serve as unreliable narrators,^[12] may clarify or provide different perspectives on past events.^[13] What the readers believe to be true may therefore not necessarily be true.^[7]

The story's future lies sixteen years in the fictional past. So if you take the date at the beginning of AGoT to be 298AL, then sixteen years prior puts you at 282AL, which going by the Timeline of Wiki is the start of Robert's Rebellion. It is interestingly enough that the 16 year span does not go back to the Tourney at Harrnehal. The Wiki timeline states that the beginning of Robert's Rebellion was when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. So back to Little Wing's link, "key event" of ASoIaF fall in the events from Rhaegar's aduction of Lyanna to the start of AGoT.

Okay...so I'm stating the obvious to everyone...but it was moment of clarity for me. :dunce:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Alright, I have a question. Apologies if it has been asked 1000 times. They say the Last Hero ended the long night, right? Any idea how? There had to have been tons of wights after a long winter like that. One man and one sword - did he kill them all one by one, or did he do something in one fluid motion that would make "Lightbringer" an appropriate name? Did some wights & Others retreat to fight another day? Are some of them hunting now?

Appreciate your thoughts.

The main heretical train of thought is that the Children helped him through providing guest right and then acting as intermediaries for a 2nd Pact between Men and the White Walkers that established Winterfell, the Starks, the Wall, and the origins of what we now know as the Night's Watch

[Teak]

Thanks for sharing the link Little Wing. I only made through the first section "Magic and Realism" and found this:

According to Martin, much of the key to Ice and Fire's story future lies sixteen years in the fictional past of which each volume reveals more.^[7] Events planned from the beginning are foreshadowed, although Martin heeds story developments to not be predictable.^[11] The viewpoint characters, who serve as unreliable narrators,^[12] may clarify or provide different perspectives on past events.^[13] What the readers believe to be true may therefore not necessarily be true.^[7]

The story's future lies sixteen years in the fictional past. So if you take the date at the beginning of AGoT to be 298AL, then sixteen years prior puts you at 282AL, which going by the Timeline of Wiki is the start of Robert's Rebellion. It is interestingly enough that the 16 year span does not go back to the Tourney at Harrnehal. The Wiki timeline states that the beginning of Robert's Rebellion was when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. So back to Little Wing's link, "key event" of ASoIaF fall in the events from Rhaegar's aduction of Lyanna to the start of AGoT.

Okay...so I'm stating the obvious to everyone...but it was moment of clarity for me. :dunce:

I had never heard that, thanks! I think it isn't helping my headache, though. Abduction - AGOT. Great, so not alot to go on.

[Teak]

Thank you Unwashed & Hand. :drunk: Love to hear other folks' thoughts.

[nanother]

But remember, this is after his initial run-in with Jafer and Othor. I maintain that before that encounter, Mormont did not connect the fishermen's "white walkers" with the Others of legend.

I never said he did. In fact, I believe this supports that he only connected the two with certainty after the wights showed up...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thanks for sharing the link Little Wing. I only made through the first section "Magic and Realism" and found this:

According to Martin, much of the key to Ice and Fire's story future lies sixteen years in the fictional past of which each volume reveals more.^[7] Events planned from the beginning are foreshadowed, although Martin heeds story developments to not be predictable.^[11] The viewpoint characters, who serve as unreliable narrators,^[12] may clarify or provide different perspectives on past events.^[13] What the readers believe to be true may therefore not necessarily be true.^[7]

The story's future lies sixteen years in the fictional past. So if you take the date at the beginning of AGoT to be 298AL, then sixteen years prior puts you at 282AL, which going by the Timeline of Wiki is the start of Robert's Rebellion. It is interestingly enough that the 16 year span does not go back to the Tourney at Harrnehal. The Wiki timeline states that the beginning of Robert's Rebellion was when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. So back to Little Wing's link, "key event" of ASoIaF fall in the events from Rhaegar's aduction of Lyanna to the start of AGoT.

Okay...so I'm stating the obvious to everyone...but it was moment of clarity for me. :dunce:

So Aegon is going to abduct Arya? :dunno:

[Teak]

So Aegon is going to abduct Arya? :dunno:

Or Jon will finally steal someone.