M + L = J and Qhorin knew/suspected it? (NO crackpot)

[Starks Among Us]

So what Eddard said about Lyanna was true then.. she was a wild one, Robert, Raegar and Mance? Somebodys about to get told they are NOT the father!

Not sure why you find it odd that Qurin would ask him to go scouting right away when Jon had already proved that he was a very capable warrior, and I am sure word traveled fast, and Im sure he would have liked the chance to get to know the new Guy.. real simple.

Wouldnt Lyanna's Wolf Pup brother be the youngest of the Starks?... Benjen? and at this point was he recruited to Join the Nightswatch by Mance?

She was betrothed to Robert but I dont think she ever had (ahem) relations with him. If Mance is the father then she was probably willing, and there's always the chance that she was "raped" by someone (Rhaegar) because a lot of characters in the book seem to think she was carried off unwillingly and "raped".

I think there are some people at the wall, and North of the wall, to include some of the NW and Wildlings that know about Jon. Who his parents are, if he's the PTWP etc. There are many interactions with characters that lead us to believe they know something more about Jon than what the reader is being told. The way Ygritte talks to him and tells him things "you know nothing Jon Snow" among other things, Qohirn, Benjen, LC Mormont, Mance, Aemon....there just seem to be quite a few people that elude to the fact that Jon is something special. Regardless who his father is, obviously Jon is important.

Benjen didn't join the NW until after Robert's Rebellion and after Ned came back from the war to take up residence in WF again. So Jon, Robb, Catelyn and Ned took up residence and then Benjen headed to the wall.

[Starks Among Us]

Here I am again... can't let go of the idea of M + L = J. :bang: :bang: :bang:

After all, the only reason it would be impossible IMHO is the thing about GRRM and his editor that a poster above has brought up. If it's a true fact that happened just like that, all right it does kill the theory. Even if the text in the five books we have so far doesn't kill it. Hey who knows. Maybe the GRRM/editor story didn't happen strictly like that or maybe GRRM was testing the strengh of R + L as a false clue people would easily fall for. Maybe the editor got it wrong, maybe GRRM didn't want to give away Jon's parentage and he is waiting until the last book. I don't know, really. All I know is, if GRRM's plan is M + J = J, he's done a nice job about it so far.

I'm rereading ADWD and all these little details pop out. I might be putting myself out to be a target for mockery (mock is fun! ) but I'm really going to insist and keep posting the stuff I think supports Mance and Lyanna being Jon's parents. Why not? Theorizing is a big part of the fun for many people, if it doesn't prove true in the end at least I'll know I had fun. And it does make you look at the books from a different angle, which can be very interesting. So, here's some I found intriguing in ADWD:

1- Mance actually says he tasted the northman's daughter! He's joking, he's singing The Dornishman's Wife for Ramsay and his boys and he changes the lyrics to make it a funny song. But listening to Mance say that, while he is in Winterfell of all places... gave me chills.

2- When Melisandre asks Mance to rescue "Arya", he doesn't ask for anything in return, he doesn't refuse her, instead he accepts the task immediately. Does he have an agenda of his own? Or he just wanted to help his son's "sister"?

3- More references to scaling the Wall and towers. He says it would be so easy to get into Jon's rooms and kill him if he wanted to. So it's pretty clear Mance is established as a very good climber. He could have climbed ToJ... or Winterfell's walls to Lyanna's room. Wherever Jon was conceived.

4- Mance's eyes were described as brown in ASOS. In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADWD she notices Mance's eyes change color form GREY to brown when he's not wearing the shirt of bones which weakens the glamour. But Rattleshirt's eyes are described as "little yellow eyes" in ADWD, was that a typo? So why grey if neither characters' eyes are supposed to be grey? Well Jon's eyes being grey, maybe it was a Freudian slip on Martin's side. Or, just a typo...

And, not specifically about ADWD, Jon and Mance's relationship screams of future change of feelings _ a change for more trust and more appreciation. They aren't antagonists at all, which one could expect them to be considering Jon has lied to Mance and betrayed him. Why doesn't Mance hate him? If he is Jon's father, no further explanation needed.

Also both songs are too much. Bael the bard is completely literal. And The Dornishman's wife? Mance sure sings that song a lot; and he says to Melisandre he tasted the dornishman's wife, and what if also that was literal? Maybe he DID go to Dorne... maybe The Dornishman's wife is his own fake name for Lyanna, if he doesn't want people to know about the Northman's daughter who was held captive in Dorne, he can still sing about her and have his little secret.

And his story about remembering Jon's face when he was a little boy? Why would he remember a little boy's face, years ago? Why was he out there in the snow anyway, and "happened" to meet Jon? Maybe he wanted to see his son's face and went looking for him, I could believe that he did remember his own boy's face.

I find these details about Mance and Jon to be a good build up for future revelations, if there will be any. And if Jon is really the PTWP, what's the problem if he's not Rhaegar's son? Mance is a King too. And at least for me as a reader, a living father for Jon would be so much better than a dead one...

You bring up a lot of good points! Why would he remember some random child that he saw one day? That's a very good question unless it is as you say, or unless he (and some of the other characters) are just aware of Jon's destiny.

The song about the Dornishman's wife, the only other thing I could think of was if Mance was sleeping with Elia.

I also wonder if GRRM didn't ask the editors who Jon's father was just to hear their thoughts. From what I understand he neither confirmed nor denied their answers, just decided that based upon their answers they could continue with the scripts.

[Jon Icefyre]

She was betrothed to Robert but I dont think she ever had (ahem) relations with him. If Mance is the father then she was probably willing, and there's always the chance that she was "raped" by someone (Rhaegar) because a lot of characters in the book seem to think she was carried off unwillingly and "raped".

I think there are some people at the wall, and North of the wall, to include some of the NW and Wildlings that know about Jon. Who his parents are, if he's the PTWP etc. There are many interactions with characters that lead us to believe they know something more about Jon than what the reader is being told. The way Ygritte talks to him and tells him things "you know nothing Jon Snow" among other things, Qohirn, Benjen, LC Mormont, Mance, Aemon....there just seem to be quite a few people that elude to the fact that Jon is something special. Regardless who his father is, obviously Jon is important.

Benjen didn't join the NW until after Robert's Rebellion and after Ned came back from the war to take up residence in WF again. So Jon, Robb, Catelyn and Ned took up residence and then Benjen headed to the wall.

I don't think most people in the realm actually believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna that idea is mainly from Robert, and no one in the realm would dare tell him otherwise. In fact based on what we've read in all the books so far the vast majority of people think of Rhaegar in a very good light including Ned Stark. In GOT when Ned thinks of Robert's whoring ways he compares Robert to Rhaegar, and wonders if Rhaegar ever visited any brothels to which Ned comes to the conclusion that Rhaegar would never do such a thing. That right there should tell you something about how Ned views the character of Rhaegar. Don't you think if Rhaegar honestly raped Ned's sister Ned would have some bad thoughts about the guy?? But he never shares any bad thoughts about Rhaegar ever, that's a pretty big hint that Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna.

[PuzzleTime]

Could Mance=Rhaegar?

Considering Mance's musical abilities?

(R=M)+L=J ?

[Trident full of Dogs]

So what Eddard said about Lyanna was true then.. she was a wild one, Robert, Raegar and Mance? Somebodys about to get told they are NOT the father!

Not sure why you find it odd that Qurin would ask him to go scouting right away when Jon had already proved that he was a very capable warrior, and I am sure word traveled fast, and Im sure he would have liked the chance to get to know the new Guy.. real simple.

Wouldnt Lyanna's Wolf Pup brother be the youngest of the Starks?... Benjen? and at this point was he recruited to Join the Nightswatch by Mance?

There's no need for Lyanna having been wild in that sense...

If she loved Rhaegar then R + L = J so no other men.

If she loved Mance I think either she escaped with him somewhere else and it wasn't her at ToJ, or Rhaegar took her unwillingly to ToJ and (hopefully) didn't rape her. And Mance climbed the ToJ and fathered Jon.

I know it is taken as canon that Lyanna gave birth in ToJ. But we never got the words "And Ned entered the tower and found Lyanna dying in her blood bed" or even " Lyanna was screaming from a window in the tower as Ned fought the KG".

Instead:

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blue across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.

Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes.

That was Ned being woke from a dream not having a memory flashback. As the man (Vayon Poole) calls his name and wakes him up, the sound of Poole's voice invades his dream. So the last partof the dream, Lyanna calling "Lord Eddard" and maybe even "Eddard!" just before that is probably Poole's voice waking him up. See, Ned was dreaming about a tower and fighting KG, then Lyanma steps in his dream calling him Eddard not Ned as we'd expect, and Ned wakes up. There was no imaging of Lyanna inside that tower, or screamig from.a window of that tower. So someone else could have been inside, even Ashara Dayne for all.I know.

Yeah this theory doesn't seem to fit the Song of Ice and Fire so far (but wasn't that song promised for the baby called Aegon???). I'll wait and see what comes next.

[Jon Icefyre]

There's no need for Lyanna having been wild in that sense...

If she loved Rhaegar then R + L = J so no other men.

If she loved Mance I think either she escaped with him somewhere else and it wasn't her at ToJ, or Rhaegar took her unwillingly to ToJ and (hopefully) didn't rape her. And Mance climbed the ToJ and fathered Jon.

I know it is taken as canon that Lyanna gave birth in ToJ. But we never got the words "And Ned entered the tower and found Lyanna dying in her blood bed" or even " Lyanna was screaming from a window in the tower as Ned fought the KG".

Instead:

That was Ned being woke from a dream not having a memory flashback. As the man (Vayon Poole) calls his name and wakes him up, the sound of Poole's voice invades his dream. So the last partof the dream, Lyanna calling "Lord Eddard" and maybe even "Eddard!" just before that is probably Poole's voice waking him up. See, Ned was dreaming about a tower and fighting KG, then Lyanma steps in his dream calling him Eddard not Ned as we'd expect, and Ned wakes up. There was no imaging of Lyanna inside that tower, or screamig from.a window of that tower. So someone else could have been inside, even Ashara Dayne for all.I know.

Yeah this theory doesn't seem to fit the Song of Ice and Fire so far (but wasn't that song promised for the baby called Aegon???). I'll wait and see what comes next.

Not necessarily that's just what Rhaegar thought at one point, but Rhaegar also thought he himself was TPTWP at one point too so he's been wrong about it before. When Rhaegar found out that Elia could not have any more children after she had Rhaenys and Aegon, Rhaegar said "there has to me one more the dragon needs three heads" in order to fufill the prophecy. Many R+L=J supporters believe that at some point before his death Rhaegar realized Aegon would not be TPTWP, probably during his relationship that occurred with Lyanna a little while later. It's pretty clear that TPTWP will have a combination of ice and fire, Aegon wouldn't have that combination and I think before he met his end Rhaegar realized his child with Lyanna would have that combination of ice and fire and would therefore be TPTWP.

[The guy from the Vale]

Could Mance=Rhaegar?

Considering Mance's musical abilities?

(R=M)+L=J ?

Mance has brown hair, Rhaegar had the typical Targ look. Also, Mance grew up at the Wall and became a wildling leader after. There's no indication he ever was south of the Wall.

[Starks Among Us]

Mance has brown hair, Rhaegar had the typical Targ look. Also, Mance grew up at the Wall and became a wildling leader after. There's no indication he ever was south of the Wall.

Mance states himself he has been south of the wall more than half a hundred times, and that's only since he's been king beyond the wall.

[Ygrain]

I like this theory very much! I am a fan of the traditional R+L=J but this one has also crossed my mind. I've often had the feeling while reading the books that there are some characters who seem to give off the impression that they know there is something special about Jon. Aemon, Benjen, LC Mormont, Qhorin, Mance, Ygritte and even some of the other wildlings. Now there is no proof to say that they know or to say that there even is something special about Jon, it's just the impression that I get from reading some conversations.

Another thing I think (and I have been ripped apart for this as it's totally crackpot lol) I think Jon was born prior enough to Rhaegar leaving for the Trident that Lyanna could have gotten pregnant a second time and then died having a miscarriage or giving birth a second time. So to me, that could explain why Lyanna was with Rhaegar, but could also explain why Mance could be Jon's father. Perhaps, they were all three at the tourney and perhaps Mance had made his trip to WF or the surrounding area prior to the tourney and met Lyanna, heck, we know black brothers are more than welcome at WF, he could have even met Lyanna before on a trip to WF, and Benjen got recruited from somewhere/by someone. Also, it seemed as though he knew WF pretty well. We speculate that the knight of the laughing tree was Lyanna or Howland Reed...could it have been Mance? Or perhaps Lyanna really was the KotLT and Rhaegar followed her, realized it, then later decided to kidnap her not realizing she was already knocked up with Mance's baby, then after the child was born he knocked her up again to fulfill his prophecy.

There also is the underlying theme throughout the story that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna...what gives people this impression? How do they know she didn't go willingly? Or do they know she didn't go willingly....? Why didn't Aery's demand Rhaegar give her back and realize that he was dishonnering the house of Stark? Was Varys even at this point poisoning the crown against the Starks?

One thing we do know from the text is that even after Mance turns wildling, he still crosses the wall "more than half a hundred times" I think that is mentioned at some point in SoS when Jon is getting ready to cross with the wildlings, that Mance had already done it on numerous occasions...and on the last occasion, brought back Dalla and Val ...is Mance truly climbing the wall when he goes? We saw how dangerous that is, and on his way back with two women? I mean,we saw how difficult it was to scale the wall even with a large amount of people and ladders, how difficult would it be for one man to scale a wall half a hundred times and the one time with two women? That just doesn't make sense to me, but then again, maybe I'm misinterpretting the text (def would not be the first time)???? But to my understanding the last time he went south he traveled far enough south to join Robert, then came up to WF. What purpose could he have had to do this? Why did he want to go to WF with Robert? Was it so he could get a glimpse of Jon? Had he done it in the past on previous trips south of the wall? Also, I think it says he brought Val and Dalla back with him on his return trip from WF, which I understood to mean prior to him having to cross the wall.

My point I guess, is that I do like your theory and agree with it and support it as an alternative to R+L=J. I also think that its not unlikely as we know Mance has travled south of the wall on many occasions while I wildling so it's not unfeasible to say that he didn't do it as a Crow. It would not suprise me at all if the tale of Bael the Bard is true in it's literal sense in this story, but I also dont think it likely. Either way, I'm not sure which theory I like better R+L=J or M+L=J....

According to GRRM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, who was conceived just before the Sack of KL. The whole Rebellion lasted for about a year, meaning, Lyanna got pregnant after she had been missing for a couple of months .

BTW, Aerys couldn't order Rhaegar to return Lyanna because Rhaegar couldn't be found at that time, most probably for exactly this reason - so that he couldn't be ordered to return her.

[Ygrain]

Mance states himself he has been south of the wall more than half a hundred times, and that's only since he's been king beyond the wall.

Being south of the Wall does not equal to taking a weeks' to months' journey across Westeros to the mountains of Dorne - even if he knew where to go in the first place.

[Tagganaro]

Could Mance=Rhaegar?

Considering Mance's musical abilities?

(R=M)+L=J ?

Stop it. You just stop it right now. For the 1000th time, Mance is not Rheagar. Rheagar is not cool enough to do half the stuff Mance has done. It's impossible.

Here I am again... can't let go of the idea of M + L = J. :bang: :bang: :bang:

1- Mance actually says he tasted the northman's daughter! He's joking, he's singing The Dornishman's Wife for Ramsay and his boys and he changes the lyrics to make it a funny song. But listening to Mance say that, while he is in Winterfell of all places... gave me chills.

There's been good speculation before that Mance is not actually singing about himself here- He's singing about Ramsay. The lyrics of the song have the taster dying a bloody death for overstepping his bounds by tasting the Northman's daughter. If you look at the lyrics and think about them, it comes awful close to sounding like a threat/death sentence for Ramsay. Which is exactly the kind of bravado Mance would be bringing to the table. It's why he's Mance and he's awesome.

2- When Melisandre asks Mance to rescue "Arya", he doesn't ask for anything in return, he doesn't refuse her, instead he accepts the task immediately. Does he have an agenda of his own? Or he just wanted to help his son's "sister"?

Yes, it seems pretty clear that Mance has his own agenda anyway. He says as much when he states his reason for bringing the spear wives along (I have a certain ploy in mind). It could be any number of things of course, but it does seem as if Mance is working at least one other agenda here. Even if he isn't, it can still be explicable in terms of him helping Jon/Mel out without having to see a blood relation. He knows Jon is partially/heavily responsible for saving his life, he supports Jon insomuch as Jon is the best option at the Wall for the wildlings and helping in the battle against the Others, and he has an inbred respect for the Starks dating back to his obsession with Bael the Bard.

4- Mance's eyes were described as brown in ASOS. In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADWD she notices Mance's eyes change color form GREY to brown when he's not wearing the shirt of bones which weakens the glamour. But Rattleshirt's eyes are described as "little yellow eyes" in ADWD, was that a typo? So why grey if neither characters' eyes are supposed to be grey? Well Jon's eyes being grey, maybe it was a Freudian slip on Martin's side. Or, just a typo...

Probably a typo. Val's eyes also magically switch colors in ADWD, and GRRM seems to be really bad at this sort of editing thing. Don't even get me started on the possibility that the narrow hips of Jeyne Westerling are merely a typo.

And, not specifically about ADWD, Jon and Mance's relationship screams of future change of feelings _ a change for more trust and more appreciation. They aren't antagonists at all, which one could expect them to be considering Jon has lied to Mance and betrayed him. Why doesn't Mance hate him? If he is Jon's father, no further explanation needed.

True, but there are also reasons why Mance doesn't hate Jon that have nothing to do with that. First, he sees Jon as a Stark which was his reason for accepting him in the first place based on his love for Bael the Bard. Second, he knows that Jon protected Dalla, Val, and his baby during the battle rather than kill them or whatever else. Third, he realizes that of the options available to lead the NW, Jon is the only one who doesn't outright hate wildlings so there is hope there. And fourth, I'd say there is a bit of a kindred spirit between them based on their "bastardly" status of low births who make something out of themselves.

And his story about remembering Jon's face when he was a little boy? Why would he remember a little boy's face, years ago? Why was he out there in the snow anyway, and "happened" to meet Jon? Maybe he wanted to see his son's face and went looking for him, I could believe that he did remember his own boy's face.

Within the context of this story, he also talks about seeing Jon later at Robert's feast and making note of his face. He explains that he was brought to WF by the Old Commander Qorqyle for "seasoning" which makes sense in that Mance was an up-and-comer in the NW with little to no experience South of the Wall. I don't think it's that odd that Mance (who probably already loved the story of Bael the Bard), would be somewhat awestruck by meeting the Starks and their children and remember their faces, especially when he later sees Jon again for the second time.

[A Crow Come Over]

Hello, obviously this has come up before, butI've searched the board for a M + L = J thread but wasn't able to find much and it doesn't seem to be a popular theory here. Even before I write my post, I'd ask of those of you who are "older" in these forums to please link to similar threads when you post, so we could gather as much posts as possible on the subject.

I was very happy with the R + L = J theory, as it suits many details in Asoiaf specially the "dragon thing" and prophecies. I still think it is a good theory.

BUT (as Uncle Benjen says what one says before "but" is not the important part..) I don't think Mance + Lyanna = Jon is crackpot. At all. So I'm kinda disappointed not many people like this possibility or think it could be true, and I'll try to do my best here to prove it's not ridiculous or far-fetched, but worth of discussing. I'll list my reasons:

1- Qhorin Halfhand's attitude towards Jon.

I found it queer that Qhorin has just met Jon, and out of the blue, he chooses him to go scouting with him. Why? Does he know he's a warg, within a few minutes of their meeting? Or does he want to take Jon with him because Jon could be important to Mance? As in... (don't throw rocks)... ta da, his son? He was friends with Mance, so if he knew/suspected/just found out! Mance was Jon's father, could Qhorin have meant Jon has Mance's look? Could be. Mance and Jon are both described as slender and having brown hair. The words "long brown hair" are both in Ned's and in Mance's description, too.

Mance tells Jon that in the chapter they first meet.

And why should Qhorin know about Mance and Lyanna, and their bastard son raised by her brother ? Maybe in the past, Mance confided in him (they were friends). Maybe Qhorin was present when Mance met Lyanna and saw how it went.

Another quote from the same Chapter (Mance and Jon's first meeting):

Now why would he mention Qhorin. Was Qhorin around when young Mance was womanizing, as a disapproving righteous brother? Is that why Mance thinks of him when he talks of his fondness for the ladies? That is a further indication Qhorin could have been aware of Mance's seduction of Lyanna, if it actually happened.

2 - Bael the Bard

That song is is too much of a coincidence and has been discussed before, so no good going through it too much. But basically, Bael = anagram for Abel, Bael also being a raider before he was King-beyond-the-wall, the scaling the wall + eating and singing at Lord Stark's table. Mace admits as much, when he tells Jon Bael the Bard's exploit inspired his own.

But what about other bits of the song, that just ring deja vu? Not only the winter rose (which Mance does not mention) but the lady throwing herself off the tower. IMHO, the song Ygritte knows is probably a mix of Bael the Bard's old story AND stuff that happened more recently; these songs were not written (or at least the smallfolk could not read it) so much could be changed as people sang it ot one another. The lady who jumps froi the tower is likely Ashara Dayne. and the wildlings who sang the song merged her story with the Winter Rose Maid (Lyanna).

3- Harrenhall

The tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a MAJOR pillar of R + L = J. Agreed. It feets R + J = L nicely. But:

I'm so not going into a detailed analysis of the KotLT's tale, as it is extensively done already, in the R + L = J threads and its own threads I guess. But that Black Brother WAS there. It could have been Mance for all we know. Maybe he met Lyanna there.

4- Alfie Allen

IMHO the Star Wars thing he talks about has a lot more to do with M + L = J, than with R + L = J. Mance is still alive, and he is Jon's enemy. Also Bael the Bard's tale include a father-son showdown, "sword to sword" in which Bael is slain by the young Lord of Winterfell, because he would not kill his own son. That could be foreshadowing of a Mance-Jon showdown. This one actually isn't a good reason for M+L=J to be true, but it has a ring to it!!!!!

And what about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLB, ToJ, Prince that was promised, etc...? Dunno. Maybe Rhaegar did fall in love with her. Maybe she didn't fall in love with him but was kidnapped just the same. Maybe she was pregnant of Mance's child when Rhaegar kidnapped her. Maybe Mance climbed the ToJ for all I know, he climbed a frigging gigantic ICE wall why not a much smaller tower made of stones ? And we know Mance does have a thing for Dorne after all.

I still consider R+L=J more likely than M+L=J.

M+L=J is the underdog. But it has its chances!!!

I like it better than R+L=J AND A+J=T

[Starks Among Us]

According to GRRM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, who was conceived just before the Sack of KL. The whole Rebellion lasted for about a year, meaning, Lyanna got pregnant after she had been missing for a couple of months .

BTW, Aerys couldn't order Rhaegar to return Lyanna because Rhaegar couldn't be found at that time, most probably for exactly this reason - so that he couldn't be ordered to return her.

Yes, I am aware that GRRM states that Jon and Danny are approx 8-9m apart (what he says and what my theories are tend to be two different things).I believe Dany was born right after the sack of KL not concieved right before the sack of KL...if I remember correctly I thought they fled KL in the storm, and she was born shortly thereafter during said storm, thus become Danaerys Storm Born...

Interesting how nobody could find Rhaegar and yet Ned seemed to have no difficulties.

[Starks Among Us]

Being south of the Wall does not equal to taking a weeks' to months' journey across Westeros to the mountains of Dorne - even if he knew where to go in the first place.

We know of a couple occasions where he went to WF. We also know that he was at WF with King Robert, having traveled far enough south to join with Robert's court to come to WF. That trip in itself would have been weeks long. There's nothing to indicate what he did south of the wall except on a few occasions (going to WF twice, seeing Jon playing once, bringing back Dalla and Val) so we cannot say for sure where he travled or how long he was gone other than those times. However, if I were risking my life climbing an 800+ foot wall more than half a hundred times (when we know how easy it is to die doing so) I would be making sure to get the best out of risking my life such a way. Meaning, I wouldn't be climbing that wall just to get to the otherside, have a poke about the local vacinity and climb back...I'd be exploring as far and wide as I could...especially if I was planning on invading said territory.

[Ygrain]

Yes, I am aware that GRRM states that Jon and Danny are approx 8-9m apart (what he says and what my theories are tend to be two different things).I believe Dany was born right after the sack of KL not concieved right before the sack of KL...if I remember correctly I thought they fled KL in the storm, and she was born shortly thereafter during said storm, thus become Danaerys Storm Born...

I'm afraid not: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenerys#History

Interesting how nobody could find Rhaegar and yet Ned seemed to have no difficulties.

Nobody could find Rhaegar when the whole mess began. Hightower found him after the Battle of the Bells (but no-one else) and Ned very apparently was told by someone where to look and what to expect, as he travelled with only a small party of trustworthy companions.

We know of a couple occasions where he went to WF. We also know that he was at WF with King Robert, having traveled far enough south to join with Robert's court to come to WF. That trip in itself would have been weeks long. There's nothing to indicate what he did south of the wall except on a few occasions (going to WF twice, seeing Jon playing once, bringing back Dalla and Val) so we cannot say for sure where he travled or how long he was gone other than those times. However, if I were risking my life climbing an 800+ foot wall more than half a hundred times (when we know how easy it is to die doing so) I would be making sure to get the best out of risking my life such a way. Meaning, I wouldn't be climbing that wall just to get to the otherside, have a poke about the local vacinity and climb back...I'd be exploring as far and wide as I could...especially if I was planning on invading said territory.

You're seriously suggesting that he would go exploring just a little north of Dorne because he planned such a long-reaching invasion? Even Aegon the Conqueror pulled that one only thanks to the dragons.

[-Ghost-]

Yes, I am aware that GRRM states that Jon and Danny are approx 8-9m apart (what he says and what my theories are tend to be two different things).I believe Dany was born right after the sack of KL not concieved right before the sack of KL...if I remember correctly I thought they fled KL in the storm, and she was born shortly thereafter during said storm, thus become Danaerys Storm Born...

Interesting how nobody could find Rhaegar and yet Ned seemed to have no difficulties.

Dany wasnt born around or right after the sack of KL though, Jon was. She was born 8-9 months after that. Its info straight from GRRM, im not sure why you would question it. She was born during a storm on Dragonstone, but not right after the sack.

Also, Im pretty sure Dalla and Val are born Wildlings, Mance didnt take them from South of the Wall.

[Jon Icefyre]

We know of a couple occasions where he went to WF. We also know that he was at WF with King Robert, having traveled far enough south to join with Robert's court to come to WF. That trip in itself would have been weeks long. There's nothing to indicate what he did south of the wall except on a few occasions (going to WF twice, seeing Jon playing once, bringing back Dalla and Val) so we cannot say for sure where he travled or how long he was gone other than those times. However, if I were risking my life climbing an 800+ foot wall more than half a hundred times (when we know how easy it is to die doing so) I would be making sure to get the best out of risking my life such a way. Meaning, I wouldn't be climbing that wall just to get to the otherside, have a poke about the local vacinity and climb back...I'd be exploring as far and wide as I could...especially if I was planning on invading said territory.

Going south of the wall to WF(the northern most kingdom in the realm)is a lot different than goin all the way down to Dorne(the southern most kingdom in the realm). And I Highly doubt Mance went far south of WF when he joined Robert's court, To suggest that it was not unlikely that Mance left the wall while he was still a sworn brother of the NW and then decided to go all the way to the most southern kingdom in the realm(Dorne) during a time of war and somehow climbed up the TOJ and stole Lyanna from Rhaegar or impregnated her is beyond absurd. Seriously there isn't a shred of evidence whatsoever to support this crackpot theory, ur basing this all purely on your own speculation and ideas you made up in your head to try to make this theory true, Not to mention the fact that you haven't addressed the huge problem of how the hell would Mance know Lyanna was at the TOJ to begin with? If Rhaegar was able to hide Lyanna's location from almost everyone in the realm until Ned finally found her what makes you think Mance would know they were at the TOJ? You wanna say that this crazy idea is possible then fine go ahead but to say that it is not unlikely?? Hahaha come on give me a break who are you kidding?

[Jon Icefyre]

Interesting how nobody could find Rhaegar and yet Ned seemed to have no difficulties.

Seemed to have no difficulties are you serious? It took Ned over a year to find his sister and I highly doubt he discovered the whereabouts of Lyanna's location on his own he most likely found out from Ashara Dayne. If the rebels lose that war then there's no way Ned would have found Lyanna at the TOJ. She probably would have revealed herself to him/the public later but no one finds her at the TOJ if the Loyalist would have put down Robert's rebellion.

[Starks Among Us]

I'm afraid not: http://awoiaf.wester...aenerys#History

Nobody could find Rhaegar when the whole mess began. Hightower found him after the Battle of the Bells (but no-one else) and Ned very apparently was told by someone where to look and what to expect, as he travelled with only a small party of trustworthy companions.

You're seriously suggesting that he would go exploring just a little north of Dorne because he planned such a long-reaching invasion? Even Aegon the Conqueror pulled that one only thanks to the dragons.

I'm suggesting that as a bard/minstrel he could go anywhere and be accepted anywhere and if I were him I wouldn't be risking my life climbing the wall just to stay in the north.

[Ygrain]

I'm suggesting that as a bard/minstrel he could go anywhere and be accepted anywhere and if I were him I wouldn't be risking my life climbing the wall just to stay in the north.

But you're basically suggesting that someone preparing an invasion over the Canadian border would find it worthwile to go investigating down to Venezuela or so. "Just staying" in the North covers a pretty wide territory.