M + L = J and Qhorin knew/suspected it? (NO crackpot)

[Lord of Nutella]

I think mance being jons father would bd far more awesomd than raeghar, but if just does nog fit as perfectly as rhagar does.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

I like this theory! I think Mance being Jon father would be a much more "emotional" discovery for Jon than Rheagar. I'm not sure about all the finer details of the theory, I have never really cared that much who Jon parents are, so I haven't been analysing the ToJ story all that much, but off the top of my head I don't remember any proof that Lyana was ever there.

I'm on board with this one!

[Son of Jon]

I recently decided to try my hand at doing some actual research to prove or find evidence for my own crackpot about the Starks, the Night's King, Long Night, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Others, etc and decided to do a reread looking for clues. It's my first time doing a reread with a specific intent and some things jumped out at me in the first few chapters of Game of Thrones. Two relating to this conversation are in Catelyn I, the third chapter of the book if you count the prologue. Someone earlier posted that everything with Mance and Jon happens after Game of Thrones, but...

First, Mance Rayder is mentioned before everyone important to R+L=J. Not before Jon obviously, but before both Lyanna and Rhaegar, and before Robert Baratheon if you don't count Waymar Royce shouting "For Robert!" before he died. I think that is important. Sort of in conjunction with my previously mentioned crackpot idea, the prologue, Bran I, and Catelyn I are all about Wildings, the Night's Watch, happenings beyond the wall, and Starks, until Catelyn tells Ned about the letter informing them of Jon Arryn's death. I'll get back to that in a minute.

The other interesting thing that I found in Catelyn I is this exchange:

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down on the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking it's long slow thoughts.

This is before any mention of Rhaegar, or any Targaryan for that matter, and also Lyanna. It's as if Martin spends the first 2 and a half chapters detailing the real issue, the like a magician with slight of hand showing us the Game of Thrones for 4 more books to divert us, with only smatterings of Jon and the real threat beyond the wall. It is only after the Prologue, Bran I, and the above does Catelyn bring up Jon Arryn's death and brings Ned's (and our) attention south of the wall.

Ned specifically states "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." You can chalk this up to Stark bravado of always being able to defeat the wildings, lack of discipline, etc as Jon later explains to Ygritte. But You know nothing Jon Snow, I think it's because Ned knows Mance and has nothing to fear from him, because Ned is raising his son. It leads itself to the idea that M+L=J. I like this theory, but full disclosure I'm a Mance=Rhagaer believer. So in theory M+L=J and R+L=J because Mance = Rhagear, and sidenote, Qhorin = Arthur Dayne.

Let the haters from R+L=J have at it.

[Poppa Chase]

I recently decided to try my hand at doing some actual research to prove or find evidence for my own crackpot about the Starks, the Night's King, Long Night, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Others, etc and decided to do a reread looking for clues. It's my first time doing a reread with a specific intent and some things jumped out at me in the first few chapters of Game of Thrones. Two relating to this conversation are in Catelyn I, the third chapter of the book if you count the prologue. Someone earlier posted that everything with Mance and Jon happens after Game of Thrones, but...

First, Mance Rayder is mentioned before everyone important to R+L=J. Not before Jon obviously, but before both Lyanna and Rhaegar, and before Robert Baratheon if you don't count Waymar Royce shouting "For Robert!" before he died. I think that is important. Sort of in conjunction with my previously mentioned crackpot idea, the prologue, Bran I, and Catelyn I are all about Wildings, the Night's Watch, happenings beyond the wall, and Starks, until Catelyn tells Ned about the letter informing them of Jon Arryn's death. I'll get back to that in a minute.

The other interesting thing that I found in Catelyn I is this exchange:

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down on the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking it's long slow thoughts.

This is before any mention of Rhaegar, or any Targaryan for that matter, and also Lyanna. It's as if Martin spends the first 2 and a half chapters detailing the real issue, the like a magician with slight of hand showing us the Game of Thrones for 4 more books to divert us, with only smatterings of Jon and the real threat beyond the wall. It is only after the Prologue, Bran I, and the above does Catelyn bring up Jon Arryn's death and brings Ned's (and our) attention south of the wall.

Ned specifically states "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." You can chalk this up to Stark bravado of always being able to defeat the wildings, lack of discipline, etc as Jon later explains to Ygritte. But You know nothing Jon Snow, I think it's because Ned knows Mance and has nothing to fear from him, because Ned is raising his son. It leads itself to the idea that M+L=J. I like this theory, but full disclosure I'm a Mance=Rhagaer believer. So in theory M+L=J and R+L=J because Mance = Rhagear, and sidenote, Qhorin = Arthur Dayne.

Let the haters from R+L=J have at it.

I'm not a huge fan of either scenario but I hope you're not serious about the last part. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne are dead, or someone would have noticed their purple eyes and noted it.

[BitsOfBrains]

This theory is good enough that it might have been an intentional red herring by GRRm.

The points are good enough I am surprised I haven't heard it before.

[Poppa Chase]

This theory is good enough that it might have been an intentional red herring by GRRm.

The points are good enough I am surprised I haven't heard it before.

That's what I think about RHaegar. He's a big fat red herring.

[horizon]

Good build theory. :)

[TheLastStark]

Good theory. 2 things to add that I didn't see in these threads, not sure if they add, subtract, or do nothing to this theory but thought they should be included.

1)When Jon first meets Mance he is singing the Dornishman's wife.

As he lay on the ground with the darkness around, and the taste of his blood on his tongue, His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,

“Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman’s taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s wife!”

2)When Jon was still a young child, Mance was still a brother of the NW.

The king laughed. “Your Mance! Why not? I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?”

Jon shook his head. “Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?”

“By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I’ve seen it before. Twice.”

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. “When you were a brother of the Watch...”

“Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.”

“I remember,” said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes... “You swore not to tell.”

“And kept my vow. That one, at least.”

aSoS, Jon I

[Vinayak xxxxgbb]

I think that rhaegar is mance ryder bcoz even rhaegar ussd to play songs. While melisandre exicuted lord of bones ,he appeared as mance so rhaegar could hv faked his death at the trident and could hv gone north

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Can't be

Nothing makes sense to the scenarios we have at the ToJ

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Total. Crackpot.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Bael the bard was a Targaryen .

[Spencer Bjorklund]

You're kidding right? The timeline doesn't work at all

[Viking]

I think it's possible that Qorin was Jonothor Darry. He would have met Rickard Stark and kings landing when he was in the White Cloaks.He would have met Ned Stark at the trident or later on a visit to Winterfell. The watch has provided sanctuary for at least one targaryen already, why not a white cloak who refused to kneel to childkillers? You don't need Mance Rhaegar for that. The lord commander would have helped, since a mans crimes are wiped away when they take the black.

Why Darry?

Jamie is already in the book

Whent, Hightower and Dayne were at the Tower of Joy and died

Prince Lewyn of Dorne was wearing Rhaegar's armour and he was the prince who died with the name of the woman he loved on his lips in the trident.

Selmy is also already in the book.

Only somebody from Kingslanding's upper class who later became a black brother of enough repute to warrant a trip to winterfell would have know both Jons Father, Rickard Stark and Ned Stark

The more it gets discussed the more I am convinced of Mance Rhaegar.

[redrubies]

I will begin by just stating, "What is dead may never die" BECAUSE...this BRILLIANT theory was posted two years ago and the question of "Who+Who=Jon remains unanswered! This OP had excellent points to support his theory and i wanted to bring it back since

I've been thinking about this question for quite some time, is Mance Rayder Jon Snow's father?? IMHO it breaks my heart if it were true. I love the idea of R+L=J and the whole Jon Targarian idea. After watching this Sunday's S5 Premiere i just can't ignore the way Jon is made to resemble TV Mance! I don't have a pic at the moment but if you get a chance to look at Jon's wide handle-bar mustache and the deep Nasolabial fold above Mance Rayder's mouth. I can't add anything else that is new to the brilliance stated by the OP's original theory but it definitely deserves a revisit.

[anonnyscouse]

Not much to add but maybe a bit of foreshadowing (backshadowing?) as to why Mance (an accomplished musician) may have been at Harrenhal, even if not the actual black brother who spoke up is Jon sending Daeron (an accomplished musician) with Sam to try and recruit new members.

[sj4iy]

I recently decided to try my hand at doing some actual research to prove or find evidence for my own crackpot about the Starks, the Night's King, Long Night, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Others, etc and decided to do a reread looking for clues. It's my first time doing a reread with a specific intent and some things jumped out at me in the first few chapters of Game of Thrones. Two relating to this conversation are in Catelyn I, the third chapter of the book if you count the prologue. Someone earlier posted that everything with Mance and Jon happens after Game of Thrones, but...

First, Mance Rayder is mentioned before everyone important to R+L=J. Not before Jon obviously, but before both Lyanna and Rhaegar, and before Robert Baratheon if you don't count Waymar Royce shouting "For Robert!" before he died. I think that is important. Sort of in conjunction with my previously mentioned crackpot idea, the prologue, Bran I, and Catelyn I are all about Wildings, the Night's Watch, happenings beyond the wall, and Starks, until Catelyn tells Ned about the letter informing them of Jon Arryn's death. I'll get back to that in a minute.

The other interesting thing that I found in Catelyn I is this exchange:

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down on the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking it's long slow thoughts.

This is before any mention of Rhaegar, or any Targaryan for that matter, and also Lyanna. It's as if Martin spends the first 2 and a half chapters detailing the real issue, the like a magician with slight of hand showing us the Game of Thrones for 4 more books to divert us, with only smatterings of Jon and the real threat beyond the wall. It is only after the Prologue, Bran I, and the above does Catelyn bring up Jon Arryn's death and brings Ned's (and our) attention south of the wall.

Ned specifically states "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." You can chalk this up to Stark bravado of always being able to defeat the wildings, lack of discipline, etc as Jon later explains to Ygritte. But You know nothing Jon Snow, I think it's because Ned knows Mance and has nothing to fear from him, because Ned is raising his son. It leads itself to the idea that M+L=J. I like this theory, but full disclosure I'm a Mance=Rhagaer believer. So in theory M+L=J and R+L=J because Mance = Rhagear, and sidenote, Qhorin = Arthur Dayne.

Let the haters from R+L=J have at it.

I don't have to 'have at it'. Nothing you wrote could be considered 'evidence'...order of mention isn't remotely meaningful in any way. You know what IS evidence? Things that connect the dots. When was Mance ever with Lyanna? When did he make his way down to Dorne? Why did the KG guard Lyanna inside the Tower that RHAEGAR named? Why would Ned hide Jon's lineage from everyone? Why would he pretend that Jon is his son?

This theory answers none of those things plausibly or with evidence from the text. This is yet another "God of the Gaps" argument with nothing substantial to back it up.

[RedShirt47]

Nobody after reading the books (several times) would ever come up with this theory if it had not been for R+L=J.

This is yet another let's take a well rounded theory and simply take it one more (illogical) step.

Why can't (or won't) people just accept R+L=J?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I will begin by just stating, "What is dead may never die" BECAUSE...this BRILLIANT theory was posted two years ago and the question of "Who+Who=Jon remains unanswered!

To you, maybe. I'm perfectly comfortable with Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the M+L speculation is just weak. Do we actually know that those two ever actually saw one another, even from a very large distance? Come on.

[TerrorVoid]

Works only if Mance is Rhaegar.