Jon Targaryen Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 GRRM has said we will find out Jon's parentage (a hint that we don't know it yet and the most obvious theory, Wylla and Ned is probably false) but he hasn't said Jon will find out. So who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealasaid Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 The R+L=J theory was debated thoroughly on the Board that had the sideways flames (can't remember the name). I agree with Grumpy Goat on all counts. Also. If the Others are destroyed, then will not the dragons also be destroyed? Can there be fire without ice? One magic destroys another? The Others can be viewed as pure evil, but the dragons seem neutral. Or untamed magic. I will be sorely disappointed if GRRM doesn't tell us Jon's parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Also. If the Others are destroyed, then will not the dragons also be destroyed? Can there be fire without ice? One magic destroys another? There were others before there were dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteQueen Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 There were others before there were dragons. Exactly. Dragons came to Westeros with Targaryens, the others are "native". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Maid Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 The Others can be viewed as pure evil, but the dragons seem neutral. Or untamed magic. I'll go for untamed magic and neutral, though the dragons we've encountered so far before Dany's were 'tamed' by the Targaryens. I will be sorely disappointed if GRRM doesn't tell us Jon's parentage. GRRM has said in a response to an e-mail, I think, that Jon's true parentage would be revealed in time. And as Jon Targaryen said it's "a hint that we don't know it yet and the most obvious theory, Wylla and Ned is probably false." At the early chapters of book one, we already find out from Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, so why would GRRM say something like that if the theory N + W = J is true? XD GRRM will 'tell' us who were Jon's parents, but he didn't say how, when, and if Jon will know about it at all. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laker Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 As far as L+R=J, as far as who could have knowledge of it being true I think the only person still alive who would have any idea of it would be Bartisan(sp). He was a member of the Kingsguard and may have had knowledge of Rhegears secret. If Jons birthright is Rhegars and Lyanna I don’t believe there is anyone else who could bring this into the storyline. That is assuming that Ned was as much of a man of his word as most think. And another thing I have yet to see a plausible explanation for is why, during a civil war, three of the kingsguard were protecting the tower of joy, most of all the best swordsman of them all, Sir Arthur Dayne, in Neds opinion atleast. And sorry for my shitty spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 As far as L+R=J, as far as who could have knowledge of it being true I think the only person still alive who would have any idea of it would be Bartisan(sp). He was a member of the Kingsguard and may have had knowledge of Rhegears secret. If Jons birthright is Rhegars and Lyanna I don’t believe there is anyone else who could bring this into the storyline. That is assuming that Ned was as much of a man of his word as most think. And another thing I have yet to see a plausible explanation for is why, during a civil war, three of the kingsguard were protecting the tower of joy, most of all the best swordsman of them all, Sir Arthur Dayne, in Neds opinion atleast. And sorry for my shitty spelling If Jon was born at the Tower of Joy, as the R+L=J theory postulates, then Howland Reed would know the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 GRRM has said there were dragons all over once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Dictator Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 R+L=J It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Wolf Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I just dont think GRRM would is a "long lost prince" kinda guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaegarTargaryen Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Who says Jon is meant to take the Crown? Maybe he is just meant to help Dany or be the one meant to lead the Defense against the Others. By the way, if youve read some of my posts in other Topis. im a STRONG R + L = J supporter. I think its Diva thats my arch nemesis in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spasticcolon Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I have a question, that I'm sure has been brought up before, but I lack the ability ("time") to search the forum for it: My biggest reason to believe R+L=J (aside from the hints of Ned's promise and Lyanna's death) is Ned's reaction in AGOT to Robert's desire to kill the remaining Targarayen children. Granted, Ned's honor is something that abhors this action instinctively, but he basically stakes his position as Hand on his opposition to this. This makes much more sense if we believe Jon is Rhaegar's - - Ned promised to keep Jon safe by keeping Lyanna's secret and that is why he can't even tell Catelyn. He knows if word ever possibly gets out, Robert will go so far as killing Ned's nephew; especially given how angry he will be that Rhaegar had a child with Lyanna. In order for this deception to go on, Cat has to believe that Jon is Ned's bastard and treat him like that; otherwise others might get suspicious. This is just one of my theories/rationales for my belief in R+L=J. Curious if this has been refuted in the past and I just don't know it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RageRoolz Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 First of all, i want to say that yes, i did read all the L+r=J threads and it got me thinking. I thought i remembered reading something is aSoS that had all this symbolism. So i found it and reread it. I think it points favorably to the L=R=J theory (its page 338 begining) ill summarize it to you it is a bran chapter and meera is telling bran a story. it is essentially a sotry about a crannogman(her father) who goes away and has an adventure, and eventually he is at harrenhall during a tourney. he is beaten up by some boys and a "she-wolf" defends him)this she wolf is Lyanna. Later he meets her "pack brothers" described as thus "the wild wolf who led them, the queit wolf beside him and the pup who was youngest of them all" wild=brandon(he was even described as foolish and such by Hoster Tully) quiet is clearly ned the youngest benjen i think this is fairly clear later it describes as(heres the main point)she cries when "the dragon prince"(Rhaegar) sang a song to make her weep. this clearly fits in with his personality. and then later Ned danced with a "maid with purple eyes"(anyone Targaryen?)later the quiet wolf had the crannogman sleep in his tent(ned and howland reeds budding friendship) also Lyanna was named queen of love and beauty which is named by the winner of the tourey. Rhaegar won thw tourney and didnt ned say somewhere that "howland reed knows jons ancestry" or something like that? im pretty sure he did R+L=J bank on it i dont think this story was put in for nothing. this my friends is a literary device known as "foreshadowing' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheizerbrick Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 you said you read tbe L+R=J threads...then surely you wouldve seen the pages and pages of discussion on what you just brought up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin of Ice Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 That's one of the central supports of R+L=J. And the woman Ned was dancing with was Ashara Dayne, sister to Arthur Dayne, whose family is noted for the purple eyes. She was the same one who committed suicide when Ned returned Arthur's body to the family castle of Starfall after the battle at the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RageRoolz Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 grrr and here i was thinking i found something new. oh well i should have read the sticky more thoroughly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 One thing that I love about the series is that the most important event in it--the Tourney at Harrenhal--happened 15 years before the narrative begins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lann_Boys'Girl Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 People have often cited that chapter as one of their favorites in the entire series. I think it was artfully done, too - I only realized its subject b/c a friend had told me about R+L=J after I read GOT. The best is that the "sadder story" - or, when all the smiles died, alternately - was never actually described (Rhaegar giving Lyanna the honor of being queen of love and beauty instead of his wife). I LOVE THIS SERIES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 It's not been refuted as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoren Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 If anything the story confirms that Lyanna voluntarily ran away with Rhaegar, and the whole War of the Usurper was a misunderstanding. But it does nothing to confirm that anything sprung forth from Lyanna's loins. In fact, I think it's just the opposite. If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, and they rutted like rabbits, and then honorable Ned shows up with a dead and bloody Lyanna, and a newborn child he claims is his own, doesn't that seem a little, well, obvious? Surely someone like Varys or Littlefinger could work out the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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