Video Games: The Next Generation

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Am I right to assume that you never played Demon's Souls, and haven't had to trudge through the Valley of Defilement? Blighttown is VoD-lite.

Yup. And look, I'm not saying the game has to be that way. I'm just saying that the appeal is going to be a lot more limited, which really isn't a good thing if you like the franchise. But you playing the game at release -- my hat is off to you, man. That's impressive. The first time you drop into the Abyss must have been fun....

It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish there. If you're going to explore, the ring helps a lot. But if you just want to fight Quelaag and get out, you don't need it. There's a route through the swamp that you can get to Quelaag's Domain without aggro-ing the ogres or getting poisoned, as long as you move quickly.

I know. But of course, if you don't know where Quelaag is -- and you really know nothing when you get there -- then you have to explore. And that seems like an awful lot of very slow-moving tedium. Then to find out that much of that could be avoided with just one little item...I mean, I could understand the logic of making the level that hard and not having that ring at all. Then, the developers have made the decision that the level of difficulty and problems are central to the game experience. But when the ring does exist, and finding it is really just a very strange quirk (unless you look online), but that it changes the area significantly, then the point seems kind of lost.

I'm thinking of something like Quelaag's sister dropping you a hint about a long-lost ring in an undead asylum, or something that at least clues you in that there is something out there that may help. It's not that it's a difficult puzzle to solve -- it's that you don't even know there is a puzzle in the first place, if that makes any sense.

Still, don't want it to get lost that I love that game. Still a blast on replay because of all the different character possibilities.

[Muttering Bill]

Yup. And look, I'm not saying the game has to be that way. I'm just saying that the appeal is going to be a lot more limited, which really isn't a good thing if you like the franchise. But you playing the game at release -- my hat is off to you, man. That's impressive. The first time you drop into the Abyss must have been fun....

Well, for the Valley of Defilement, imagine this... the poison swamp was about 4 times bigger, with fewer islands, and you had to wade through the whole thing to get to the boss. There was no ring, although there was HP regenerating items that would at negate the poison. But healing items were less effective while poisoned. And movement was even more restricted. In Dark Souls, when in water you can run (albeit still slowly) and dodge, in Demon's Souls trying either of those would result a couple seconds of "I'm stuck" animation. And there were no bonfires. You had to do it all in one pass - although there was a shortcut that you could open when you got to end.

All I mean to say by that is that Blighttown is essentially the developers second attempt at VoD, wherein they tried to make it easier. When you can compare the two... I go into Blighttown and think, "oh, that wasn't so bad."

The Abyss wasn't much of a surprise, since I always looked to see what my rings do. After the first death, I remembered that one of the rings mentioned it and went searching. And I'd already spend a good amount of time farming Titanite Chunks off the Darkwraiths, so getting through the area itself wasn't an issue.

It was worse the first time trying to fight the ghosts in NLR and having no idea why I couldn't hurt them. Because a Transient Curse sounded like something I'd use as a projectile. I certainly wouldn't want to curse myself. So I didn't look into it any further.

I know. But of course, if you don't know where Quelaag is -- and you really know nothing when you get there -- then you have to explore. And that seems like an awful lot of very slow-moving tedium. Then to find out that much of that could be avoided with just one little item...I mean, I could understand the logic of making the level that hard and not having that ring at all. Then, the developers have made the decision that the level of difficulty and problems are central to the game experience. But when the ring does exist, and finding it is really just a very strange quirk (unless you look online), but that it changes the area significantly, then the point seems kind of lost.

I see the ring more as a bonus. So that on replay you don't have to trudge through it all over again, which was the worst part of replaying Demon's Souls. Or for when you have to go back through for Siegmeyer's questline, or to find Quelana. But it should still suck at least once. That's the nature of these games.

I'm thinking of something like Quelaag's sister dropping you a hint about a long-lost ring in an undead asylum, or something that at least clues you in that there is something out there that may help. It's not that it's a difficult puzzle to solve -- it's that you don't even know there is a puzzle in the first place, if that makes any sense.

I certainly agree that they could have done better with hints. They could have dropped some into NPC's dialogue, or have a little riddle on a few of the less obvious locked doors. Sort of like what the old Resident Evil games did.

But I think the important thing to note is this: these games were never intended to be blockbusters. Demon's Souls was a niche, throwback game, the developers made for those few people who still like their games as brutally hard and punishing as they were back in the NES/SNES days. And for themselves, because that's the kind of game they like to make. They never expected it to be a success. But it found it's audience, and surpassed sales expectations. Then we demanded more. And they gave it to us. More of the same (with a few improvements), because we liked it the first time. And they were again surprised at how successful it was.

Dark Souls 2 is going to be different. It has to be because it's not a pet project anymore, it's a big name franchise. It's fanbase isn't the same "hardcore" crowd that it started out with. The game is almost certainly going to be casualized to some extent. It's just a matter of waiting to see how far they go. I'll admit I'm a little concerned, I like the game as is. But I'm an unabashed fanboy of the series, and will probably love it anyway, even if I don't. ^_^

[Inigima]

Valley of Defilement was world 5, right? Trying to fight the Black Phantom in the middle of the swamp was what eventually made me put Demon's Souls down. :lol:

FLOW, I hear what you're saying, I do, and I understand the concerns. But one of the biggest complaints you hear, over and over, from old school gamers is how much modern games babysit you. (Example: any recent Zelda game.) Demon's Souls was for us. It was the last, great hope for gamers who wanted to experience discovery again, with a game that refused to tell us shit.

I loved Demon's Souls. A lot. I loved it even though I about shit myself entering the Tower of Latria and tore my hair out at the boss in the church until I finally beat her. And I don't even like Dark Souls very much. (I'm not totally sure why. It feels like I have more ground to retread when I fuck up, even though I'm pretty sure that's not true. I might just suck more, and die more, than I used to -- most people seem to feel Dark Souls is easier.)

But I am with the other fans of the franchise. I don't want to see it watered down for the sake of a bunch of candyass motherfuckers who want their hands held. There are other games for that -- very nearly every other game, in fact. It would be a shame to dilute an experience you can get so few other places in order to make it more like experiences you can get in so many other places.

Aside: a game designer on another message board I'm on, who professes to love Dark Souls, is too much of a weenie to beat Zelda 1. First quest. With a walkthrough.

[Francis Buck]

Dark Souls 2 is going to be different. It has to be because it's not a pet project anymore, it's a big name franchise. It's fanbase isn't the same "hardcore" crowd that it started out with. The game is almost certainly going to be casualized to some extent. It's just a matter of waiting to see how far they go. I'll admit I'm a little concerned, I like the game as is. But I'm an unabashed fanboy of the series, and will probably love it anyway, even if I don't. ^_^

I literally just came in here to talk about DS2 until I saw the end of your own post. Having checked out some of the revealed info, I'm very, very interested to see what they do with the next installment. I think a lot of things from DS2 could be streamlined and made more convenient, without ruining the stuff that made DS2 (and I assume Demon's Souls) great. To be honest, I really wouldn't even mind a slightly easier experience. Or at least, a somewhat more directed one. I also agree with Fez's complaints of constantly feeling like you need to refer to a walk-through just to progress (without wasting a ton of time exploring). It really slowed me down in a few areas, particularly Blighttown and Sen's Fortress. The problem with those areas for me was having to go through 30 minutes to an hour of content with no bonfire in sight. I don't think it's really necessary for some of the bonfires to be tucked away so much. I think the game offers enough challenges as it is without having to scour areas for the next bonfire (or, alternatively, going online to find them). I think this was handled very well in the beginning of the game...you came across them naturally. But the one in Sen's for example? I could easily have seen myself never even finding the damn thing if I hadn't watched walk-through beforehand.

EDIT: On a totally different note, I found this article somewhat amusing. While it's certainly the parents' fault for not being properly attentive to what their child was doing (especially when passwords start getting involved), it does highlight the issue of ridiculous "micro" transactions in these so-called F2P games. I mean really, £69.99 for perishable items? Kind of over-the-top.

[Merentha]

The problem is that modern games have conditioned you that you won't miss any content if you play through it without REALLY paying attention. So, you have people getting upset that they missed Ariamis (personally, I fell into it by accident and freaked out for a bit) or the Rusted Iron Ring. None of those items are necessary (I mean, Occult weapons are worthless, even with 40 faith a divine weapon is almost always better, iirc, and faith weapon buffs are the best buffs by far). Getting the Abysswalker ring, sure, is tricky, but there are definitely enough clues that it isn't blind.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Am I right to assume that you never played Demon's Souls, and haven't had to trudge through the Valley of Defilement? Blighttown is VoD-lite.

I played the game at release. My first trip through Blighttown was without the Rusted Iron Ring, since at that point nobody had found it yet. I explored the whole swamp too. Oh, sure I had to ventrure out in short trips due to the poison, and I died more than a few times, but that's what the game is all about. Granted, that approach doesn't work too well if you have a couple of phantoms tagging along.

It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish there. If you're going to explore, the ring helps a lot. But if you just want to fight Quelaag and get out, you don't need it. There's a route through the swamp that you can get to Quelaag's Domain without aggro-ing the ogres or getting poisoned, as long as you move quickly.

I've played through the game three times now, and I've never used the rusted iron ring in Blightown except on visits back down there to find the secret dragon tree or whatever. I've always done Blightown super slow mo. I just found a way around the Ogres and I don't have too much trouble. I guess if I were to play Blighttown again I would go for the ring first, but I've never found it close to being necessary. I don't even know when the way back to the Asylum is opened (I'm guessing when you find the shortcut from the catheral back down to the main area?), but I always goes back to the Asylum around Sen's Fortress. I definitely prefered the rusted ring for fighting those Titanite Demons in the muck in Sen's Fortress.

Is the Ogre-less path to Queelag in your mind the same as it is for me? For me I go from the bonfire and basically hug the wall to the right all the way to her cave. Sometimes the ogres will see you if you get a bit off the very edge, but I got so good at it there was no problem. Once you get to her cave all monsters like those mosquito things turn away so I just run from everything.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

The problem is that modern games have conditioned you that you won't miss any content if you play through it without REALLY paying attention. So, you have people getting upset that they missed Ariamis (personally, I fell into it by accident and freaked out for a bit) or the Rusted Iron Ring. None of those items are necessary (I mean, Occult weapons are worthless, even with 40 faith a divine weapon is almost always better, iirc, and faith weapon buffs are the best buffs by far). Getting the Abysswalker ring, sure, is tricky, but there are definitely enough clues that it isn't blind.

I remember when divine weapons had a purpose too--in the early days none of the skeletons could ever be killed in the cemetery without a divine weapon. I noticed that's not the case at all anymore. And they give you experience for skeletons now too, which never used to happen.

[The Anti-Targ]

Valley of Defilement was world 5, right? Trying to fight the Black Phantom in the middle of the swamp was what eventually made me put Demon's Souls down. :lol:

You tried to fight her? She killed me twice, so then I just avoided going over to where she was hiding and just made my way to the Dirty Colossus.

[Inigima]

You tried to fight her? She killed me twice, so then I just avoided going over to where she was hiding and just made my way to the Dirty Colossus.

I probably should have done that. But dammit, I was a badass. I wanted to be able to kill it. :(

EDIT: Also, I wanted the shit over there.

[Muttering Bill]

None of those items are necessary (I mean, Occult weapons are worthless, even with 40 faith a divine weapon is almost always better, iirc, and faith weapon buffs are the best buffs by far).

Occult weapons are about even to Divine. It really depends on the weapon. On my faith build I use a Divine Lucerne and an Occult Scythe. They both have the same total DR. Occult does have a disadvantage in not being buffable. But doesn't Occult kill the ghosts in NLR? Or am I misremembering?

Since the patches, stictly physical weapons are always better any split damage weapons. Especially buffed with top level Darkmoon Blade.

I've played through the game three times now, and I've never used the rusted iron ring in Blightown except on visits back down there to find the secret dragon tree or whatever. I've always done Blightown super slow mo. I just found a way around the Ogres and I don't have too much trouble. I guess if I were to play Blighttown again I would go for the ring first, but I've never found it close to being necessary. I don't even know when the way back to the Asylum is opened (I'm guessing when you find the shortcut from the catheral back down to the main area?), but I always goes back to the Asylum around Sen's Fortress. I definitely prefered the rusted ring for fighting those Titanite Demons in the muck in Sen's Fortress.

I tend to go back to the Assylum early because I favor the Crest Shield. And because Stray Demon is a fun fight. So I end up having the ring when I go to Blighttown. I'll use it for picking up the swamp loot. But for the trip from bonfire to Quelaag it isn't necessary. I'm likely to forget to change it out when I get there, so I don't bother with it.

Hell, if you really want to be overpowered, you can have a +15 weapon early by getting the Titanite Slab from Stray Demon, then farming the Depths and New Londo Ruins. That'll break the game more than the Rusted Iron Ring does.

And that ring is essential if you want to take on the Titanite Demons in Sen's. Especially with the back 2, which are ridiculously overpowered.

Is the Ogre-less path to Queelag in your mind the same as it is for me? For me I go from the bonfire and basically hug the wall to the right all the way to her cave. Sometimes the ogres will see you if you get a bit off the very edge, but I got so good at it there was no problem. Once you get to her cave all monsters like those mosquito things turn away so I just run from everything.

There's that. There also another route (was shown to me by a phantom) you can take along the left side. It has to be done just so, but you can also avoid poisoning. Not that poison is a big deal. Just farm Darkroot a few minutes for mosses. I don't remember exactly how it was now, but there may be a video somewhere.

Edit - found a video.

Skip to 31:00. This guy was a little too slow and ends up getting poisoned, but if you jump over that longer stretch of water then you should be able to avoid it.

I remember when divine weapons had a purpose too--in the early days none of the skeletons could ever be killed in the cemetery without a divine weapon. I noticed that's not the case at all anymore. And they give you experience for skeletons now too, which never used to happen.

That's because you killed the Necromancer. I think there are 4 Necromancer's, the Skeletons won't die until you kill them. They don't respawn.

You tried to fight her? She killed me twice, so then I just avoided going over to where she was hiding and just made my way to the Dirty Colossus.

There's a small island you can lure her to. But it's still a tricky fight, since you don't have much room to maneuvre. There's a lot of good loot down there, and I don't like missing out.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I remember when divine weapons had a purpose too--in the early days none of the skeletons could ever be killed in the cemetery without a divine weapon. I noticed that's not the case at all anymore. And they give you experience for skeletons now too, which never used to happen.

I recently found that I was killing skeletons in the cemetery, but hadn't yet killed the first necromancer. I think that of of the giants skeleton in the cemetery serves as the regenerative agent. If you kill it permanently, it will still respawn later, but you know longer need divine weapons to kill anything in the cemetary. I think.

One of the few actual hints I remember is Big Hat telling you about Seath's crystal. And that really was something that wasn't hard to find on your own.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

:lol:

FLOW, I hear what you're saying, I do, and I understand the concerns. But one of the biggest complaints you hear, over and over, from old school gamers is how much modern games babysit you. (Example: any recent Zelda game.) Demon's Souls was for us. It was the last, great hope for gamers who wanted to experience discovery again, with a game that refused to tell us shit.

But didn''t the online community essentially served the function of the game telling you more? Clearly, there were some folks who finished the game without ever checking online, but I'd bet the majority did. And I'll bet the number of DS fans who never checked online, even to try to unravel issues like scaling, is even smaller. Add to that the message-leaving system, which can contain some pretty important hints but is inaccessible to people who are not online, and the purity of the experience isn't quite that pure. To some extent, a completely different experience for those who check the message boards as opposed to those who don't. Why that is true to some extent in most games, DS sort of takes that to the extreme.

But I am with the other fans of the franchise. I don't want to see it watered down for the sake of a bunch of candyass motherfuckers who want their hands held. There are other games for that -- very nearly every other game, in fact. It would be a shame to dilute an experience you can get so few other places in order to make it more like experiences you can get in so many other places.

I pretty much agree with that -- it's a great game franchise precisely because of the difficulty and mystery. And there were clearly entire levels that I don't think would have needed any adjustment at all. But still, while I personally like having to figure things out, the essentailly random nature of some of it bothered me a bit. For example, I didn't find the Drake sword the first time through, and it makes the early-mid game much easier. And finding it is comparatively random -- I killed the wyvern but didn't shoot the tail. IOW, the game difficulty changes significantly based on a pretty much random event. So is that difficulty essential to the game, or not? It's that kind of issue that leads me to understand Fez's frustration. Difficulty is fine -- difficulty that is dependent upon random events or sheer luck seems more arbitrary, and arbitrary is pretty unfair. And honestly, "fairness" is one of the best things about DS's combat system. When you die, there's a reason, not because the engine cheated or random button-mashing didn't work this time.

But I am with the other fans of the franchise. I don't want to see it watered down for the sake of a bunch of candyass motherfuckers who want their hands held. There are other games for that -- very nearly every other game, in fact. It would be a shame to dilute an experience you can get so few other places in order to make it more like experiences you can get in so many other places.

Maybe a degree of difficulty setting that impacts only the hints given by NPC, etc.? Or maybe a sage NPC of some type, or a sage-type spell, where you have to spend souls to get a hint or something? You want a particular hint, its going to cost you 10,000 souls, or whatever, scaling higher the further you get in the game.

Aside: a game designer on another message board I'm on, who professes to love Dark Souls, is too much of a weenie to beat Zelda 1. First quest. With a walkthrough.

I know more people who quit it than completed it. When I bought it, the guys at the gaming store said not to get it -- too hard and too frustrating. So of course, that's why I got it. Because I must defeat it. Of the two people I recommended it to and who bought it, one quit, but the other is still slogging.