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redriver

Winter Fell?

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True enough. The supernatural connection does run stronger in some than others. Jon and Bran, most of all, but Arya as well, I think.

:cheers: THE WOLFSWOOD: I just had to invite you to join our reread AGoT: Direwolves, Dragons [Eggs], Mormont's Raven, and Cats, Oh My! You sure seem to be on the same page as our group, and you have inspired ideas. Feel free to join us! We would be honored.

I'll find those other quotes I mentioned.

:agree:

LOL... The only other Starks alive during this magical 'rebirth' are:

- Robb (non-pov... who dies pretty early, but is strongly suggested to have had some warg abilities/potential)

- Rickon (non-pov who we know next to nothing about... but seemed to have had a premonition about his father's death and an affinity for Winterfell's crypts that we're all so excited about)

.

.

.

- and Sansa

It seems to me that Starks you guys are connecting to the supernatural are simply the ones we know more about... with the notable exception of Sansa. Is this just a nice way of saying that I should stop looking for the supernatural in Sansa chapters?

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Sansa has it. She lost it with Lady, but that may now have changed with the snowflake communion.

Have a look at the Pawn to Player thread on the main board if you want to know more about Sansa

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Sansa has it. She lost it with Lady, but that may now have changed with the snowflake communion.

Have a look at the Pawn to Player thread on the main board if you want to know more about Sansa

:agree:

I'm a big Sansa fan, and tend to read through those threads. Part of what made me interested in this thread is that the supernatural themes that seem relevant here are *exactly* the same as ones that have come up in the Sansa threads.

Here the obvious relevant themes seem to be:

- Wintefell's possible supernatural significance

- Winterfell's connection to winter weather in particular

- The supernatural aspects of the dead interred at Winterfell (this isn't present so much in the OP but comes up many times in the ensuing posts)

I would argue that we see these themes in Sansa's arc more than any of the other Stark kids. The first two have an obvious, strong presence in Sansa's snow castle chapter (A wonderful thread started by Ragnorak can be found here). Sansa's connection to the dead is less obvious but comes up in a really great post by tze (It's a long post and you have to scroll down a bit to get to her Sansa/Persephone comparison).

I really liked the theory presented by the OP. Sansa seems more directly connected to it than any of the other Stark kids and looking through her arc for supporting evidence seemed like a natural fit to me. It's unfortunate that we don't have any Sansa chapters in ADWD (where the supernatural really picks up for the other Stark POVs).

I found it shocking and frustrating that many of this thread's more prolific contributors seemed to suddenly dismiss Sansa. She's the character I would connect the most to this particular thread.

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LOL... The only other Starks alive during this magical 'rebirth' are:

- Robb (non-pov... who dies pretty early, but is strongly suggested to have had some warg abilities/potential)

- Rickon (non-pov who we know next to nothing about... but seemed to have had a premonition about his father's death and an affinity for Winterfell's crypts that we're all so excited about)

.

.

.

- and Sansa

It seems to me that Starks you guys are connecting to the supernatural are simply the ones we know more about... with the notable exception of Sansa. Is this just a nice way of saying that I should stop looking for the supernatural in Sansa chapters?

Hardly. You'll note that I never said that Rickon, Robb, and Sansa didn't have a supernatural connection... just that the connection was stronger in Bran and Jon than the others. Sansa certainly has one, but it tends to take a back seat to the events of King's Landing and later the Eyrie. I think there's every reason to search for one, but when Bran is busy being a Greenseer and Jon is busy preparing for a war with supernatural ice zombies, I find it difficult to argue that Sansa has as strong of a connection to the supernatural elements of the story as they do. This isn't a bad thing and you're certainly free to look for them if you want. As black crow pointed out, all of the Starks are Wargs and Skinchangers, including Sansa, so it's definitely there.

:agree:

I'm a big Sansa fan, and tend to read through those threads. Part of what made me interested in this thread is that the supernatural themes that seem relevant here are *exactly* the same as ones that have come up in the Sansa threads.

Here the obvious relevant themes seem to be:

- Wintefell's possible supernatural significance

- Winterfell's connection to winter weather in particular

- The supernatural aspects of the dead interred at Winterfell (this isn't present so much in the OP but comes up many times in the ensuing posts)

I would argue that we see these themes in Sansa's arc more than any of the other Stark kids. The first two have an obvious, strong presence in Sansa's snow castle chapter (A wonderful thread started by Ragnorak can be found here). Sansa's connection to the dead is less obvious but comes up in a really great post by tze (It's a long post and you have to scroll down a bit to get to her Sansa/Persephone comparison).

I really liked the theory presented by the OP. Sansa seems more directly connected to it than any of the other Stark kids and looking through her arc for supporting evidence seemed like a natural fit to me. It's unfortunate that we don't have any Sansa chapters in ADWD (where the supernatural really picks up for the other Stark POVs).

I found it shocking and frustrating that many of this thread's more prolific contributors seemed to suddenly dismiss Sansa. She's the character I would connect the most to this particular thread.

To be honest, I still don't think Sansa's more connected to Winterfell than any of the other Stark kids. I'm not trying to dismiss her and I do believe that she will have a large part to play in regards to Winterfell in the future, but I don't think that her snow castle chapter can be taken to mean that she'll have more of a role than the others.

Of all your points, I think the last is the weakest one to make - the supernatural aspect of the dead interred at Winterfell has been far more strongly associated with Jon than her thanks to his series of recurring dreams about the crypts and the old Kings of Winter rising from their graves. Similarly, he's the Stark most strongly associated with the Others who are responsible for bringing the dead back to life. In her post, tze makes an excellent point about Sansa being similar to Persephone, but I'm doubtful that it features more in her arc than it does in, say, Jon's as you suggest it does.

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To the OP especially and everyone else you've done a great job. It was a very nice read with great ideas.

On the concept of a snow storm evoking the Old Gods being upset that is certainly possible. Cersei once said:

"For herself, she wanted sleet and ice, howling winds, thunder to shake the Red Keep. She wanted a storm to match her rage."

In the Arya and death thread we explored the line about winter being death a little more in detail for reference.

I'll definitely come back to revisit the thread. Hopefully I'll be able to come up with something to have more input. :)

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Here is a post that was recently made in Heresy.I'm reproducing it here because it seems pertinent to this theory.

So with thanks to the original poster and to Black Crow and Tyryan for permission to use it and the work they've done in establishing that the game was developed in collaboration with GRRM,so we can take it as semi-canon at least.

Greetings , first of all sorry for the interruption , while i was playing the new game on facebook Game of Thrones Ascent a game based on The books i came on a quest to discover how to open a ancient WEIRBOOK OF THE FIRST MEN , after opening i started to read some pages what were offered i came on a really interesting stuff like this

SECRETS OF THE WEIRBOOK

It reads , " When ends the Long Summer, know that the Long Night shall be marked by the burning of a star in

the sky ,Witness its red fire both day and night .... "

" This red star is the blood in the snow, which shall be split when come the ancient lords of winter once more.

Beware the comin of the bloody star."

Then i have opened some other page and it goes like this

It read, " There shall come a day when the blood of the First Men shall grow thin even in the House of the North,

my son.This is a day to be feared ... "

FINAL SECRETS OF THE WIERBOOK

The remainde of the Weirbook contains dreams and prophecies , accounts of ancient Stark Kings and other lord of

the First Men.

It would be great to hear other interpretations of what's written here but here's my effort.

The first passage is fairly self explanatory.The comet heralds the coming of the Others,the coming Winter and the Long Night.That the Others appeared before the comet was seen by Luwin seems to back up the idea that they sensed it before man saw it.Could it be that the comet somehow disturbed the ward that the NK is under (speculative) and summoned the White Walkers?

The second paragraph is a bit more troublesome.It would be much easier if it said ancient King of Winter, singular, instead of plural.We might have tied it directly to the Night's King then.But I suppose,at the simplest interpretation it means Winter will be unleashed?

The third one does seem to fit this theory well.

" There shall come a day when the blood of the First Men shall grow thin even in the House of the North,

my son.This is a day to be feared ... "

This I simply take to mean that a day will arrive when there is no Stark in Winterfell,and that was the day Ramsay married Jeyne Poole.A day to be feared because that was when Winter arrived.

As to the last,I hope we get to read those soon!

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To the OP especially and everyone else you've done a great job. It was a very nice read with great ideas.

On the concept of a snow storm evoking the Old Gods being upset that is certainly possible. Cersei once said:

In the Arya and death thread we explored the line about winter being death a little more in detail for reference.

I'll definitely come back to revisit the thread. Hopefully I'll be able to come up with something to have more input. :)

Working the Battle Star Galactica angle. Do you think any characters are possibly Avatars? It would be very interesting if they were fallen Gods.

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Working the Battle Star Galactica angle. Do you think any characters are possibly Avatars? It would be very interesting if they were fallen Gods.

Nan!

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Someone mentioned Battlestar Gallatica - I recall that GRRM was a fan of the show (although he strongly disliked the ending)but the prequel includes a character name Ben Stark - found that interesting. He was a young student (quite brilliant) who believed in one god (unlike the majority of the people) and became a terrorist - blowing up a train and himself.

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Hardly. You'll note that I never said that Rickon, Robb, and Sansa didn't have a supernatural connection... just that the connection was stronger in Bran and Jon than the others. Sansa certainly has one, but it tends to take a back seat to the events of King's Landing and later the Eyrie. I think there's every reason to search for one, but when Bran is busy being a Greenseer and Jon is busy preparing for a war with supernatural ice zombies, I find it difficult to argue that Sansa has as strong of a connection to the supernatural elements of the story as they do. This isn't a bad thing and you're certainly free to look for them if you want. As black crow pointed out, all of the Starks are Wargs and Skinchangers, including Sansa, so it's definitely there.

Your comment came as the result of a conversation about innate characteristics and innate potential: 'blood' of the dragon, a possible other ancestor, etc. Viewing it from that perspective I don't see how "preparing for a war with supernatural ice zombies" has anything to do with it; that's not what I would view as relevant. I could see how you could argue that Jon's fate *is* something he was born (or written?) with, but that's a philosophical debate I don't want to touch.

If you change it to simply 'having as strong a connection to the supernatural elements of the story' then no. It doesn't seem like it at first glance. You could argue that any of the night's watchmen who fought the others, anyone who has spent time around Dany's dragons, etc. has more of connection than Sansa... but I didn't think this was the type of connection you were talking about. It also completely misses her significance as a confirmed warg and major character.

Of all your points, I think the last is the weakest one to make - the supernatural aspect of the dead interred at Winterfell has been far more strongly associated with Jon than her thanks to his series of recurring dreams about the crypts and the old Kings of Winter rising from their graves. Similarly, he's the Stark most strongly associated with the Others who are responsible for bringing the dead back to life. In her post, tze makes an excellent point about Sansa being similar to Persephone, but I'm doubtful that it features more in her arc than it does in, say, Jon's as you suggest it does.

My points are meant to be taken as a group. Obviously Jon has the same Persephone theme running through his arc; tze's post is a *comparison* between Jon and Sansa. I meant that we see the themes *as a group* in Sansa more than the other Starks. I did not mean to suggest what you imply.

To be honest, I still don't think Sansa's more connected to Winterfell than any of the other Stark kids. I'm not trying to dismiss her and I do believe that she will have a large part to play in regards to Winterfell in the future, but I don't think that her snow castle chapter can be taken to mean that she'll have more of a role than the others.

That scene reeked of foreshadowing, symbolism, and unrevealed importance more than just about any scene in the books. I think you dismiss it at the peril of your own understanding. My personal belief is that there was something supernatural about that scene beyond foreshadowing. If you read it carefully, there are a few things of note:

- Sansa *blacks out*. She loses time for no apparent or obvious reason.

- She is single minded about the building of Winterfell ignoring concerns about food and other needs... It's almost like she enters a meditative or trance like state

- She builds Winterfell in an incredibly detailed manner. She includes details that Bran, in AGOT, thought that no one knew but him... that he thought you couldn't know unless you viewed Winterfell from on high.

I think all of this points to some supernatural influence.

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snip

That scene reeked of foreshadowing, symbolism, and unrevealed importance more than just about any scene in the books. I think you dismiss it at the peril of your own understanding. My personal belief is that there was something supernatural about that scene beyond foreshadowing. If you read it carefully, there are a few things of note:

- Sansa *blacks out*. She loses time for no apparent or obvious reason.

- She is single minded about the building of Winterfell ignoring concerns about food and other needs... It's almost like she enters a meditative or trance like state

- She builds Winterfell in an incredibly detailed manner. She includes details that Bran, in AGOT, thought that no one knew but him... that he thought you couldn't know unless you viewed Winterfell from on high.

I think all of this points to some supernatural influence.

:bowdown: :bowdown: GREENSLEEVES: AWESOME REVELATION!!

I have been spending my time focusing on AGoT and parsing passages as you have regarding Sansa's Winterfell scene [in a reread], and you have done a beautiful job. I hope to eventually get to the other novels in the series so that I can devote more to the POV's elsewhere. I never looked at her scene in a providential way, and your point about seeing WF from a bird's eye point of view is spot on. I think you have a good example of Sansa demonstrating a "connection" that she does not even recognize herself - as yet. Moreover, Sansa has literally and symbolically climbed STONE, SNOW, AND SKY. She is at the point closest to the advent of snow - the "sky". This is one reason I contend that Sansa's contribution to the Stark "collective powers" will have to do with "wind" and "sky".

When I reread the Eyrie chapters, I really noticed how the seven towers disappear in clouds, like Homer's "only" description in his epics of Mount Olympus. [i also envision Sansa as a "Snow Queen", which is crazy - but Martin's details of the archetecture "inside" is white, white, white.]

Great contributions. I look forward to reading more.

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This is an excellent thread.

I don't think I've ever seen a good enough theory on the meanings of 'Winter is Coming' and 'there must always be a Stark in WInterfell', but connecting the two together and linking it to the sudden change in weather that we see at the end of ADwD is very plausible. Redriver, I salute you!

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This is an excellent thread.

I don't think I've ever seen a good enough theory on the meanings of 'Winter is Coming' and 'there must always be a Stark in WInterfell', but connecting the two together and linking it to the sudden change in weather that we see at the end of ADwD is very plausible. Redriver, I salute you!

Thank you Neo.The thread has benefited too from some high quality posters and civilized debate.In one sense the concept may have seemed a bit dry for some,it's about the bloody weather after all!

But the fun part comes in speculating about how the Stark children (including Jon) put this to rights.Who plays which role?

If this theory can ever be proven,I would imagine that would come from Bran and his weirwood link to ancient Westeros history.But there still needs to be a Stark in Winterfell to begin to remedy things.

I jumped straight to Sansa's snow castle chapter,because it seemed so connected to the ideas we're discussing here.So full of snow imagery and the idea of the castle being built and damaged,then the destroyer ripped in two.

Images and concepts such as Sansa wondering if the snowfall woke her,to the genuine time absence when she tastes the snowflake lead me to suspect at this point that she will be the Stark to restore Winterfell.

The first Queen of Winter?

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Thank you Neo.The thread has benefited too from some high quality posters and civilized debate.In one sense the concept may have seemed a bit dry for some,it's about the bloody weather after all!

But the fun part comes in speculating about how the Stark children (including Jon) put this to rights.Who plays which role?

If this theory can ever be proven,I would imagine that would come from Bran and his weirwood link to ancient Westeros history.But there still needs to be a Stark in Winterfell to begin to remedy things.

I jumped straight to Sansa's snow castle chapter,because it seemed so connected to the ideas we're discussing here.So full of snow imagery and the idea of the castle being built and damaged,then the destroyer ripped in two.

Images and concepts such as Sansa wondering if the snowfall woke her,to the genuine time absence when she tastes the snowflake lead me to suspect at this point that she will be the Stark to restore Winterfell.

The first Queen of Winter?

That is one of the most beautiful pieces of imagry in the book.

It reminds me of something from my childhood. We had a split-level house, and the backside was built up against the mountain. In the Winter, the icicles were literally from the gutter of the roof, all the way down the back and to the ground.

They were massive pillars, and I use to take a stick and rake against all of them, trying to break them, and my dad would have a fit, saying if they fell they would break out the windows. :o

But, I had a snow globe with an elfin Princess that had red hair, and that scene really reminded me of both.

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That is one of the most beautiful pieces of imagry in the book.

It reminds me of something from my childhood. We had a split-level house, and the backside was built up against the mountain. In the Winter, the icicles were literally from the gutter of the roof, all the way down the back and to the ground.

They were massive pillars, and I use to take a stick and rake against all of them, trying to break them, and my dad would have a fit, saying if they fell they would break out the windows. :o

But, I had a snow globe with an elfin Princess that had red hair, and that scene really reminded me of both.

In the absence of a "Like" button,- :bowdown: :bowdown:

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great thread. I've been lurking for a while but this is my first post. I'm a pretty new fan and have only read each book once so far but I'm almost done with my first re-read of GoT. Hoping to get to know the books much better before WoW comes out.

A few general thoughts on other's commoets first (although I know next to nothing about mythology):

Valfodr (aka Odin aka Father of the Fallen) - Sounds a little like hodor who is a very unusual character and there is a thread speculating there is a lot more to him than meets the eye. Same with Old Nan

Geryon - A creature associated with tales of treachery, possibly with 3 heads or being 3 different people. The name sounds similar to Theon Greyjoy, a man (ward of winterfell), a beast (Ramsay's dog/Reek) and a Reptillian creature (possibly the Kraken of house Greyjoy).

Now on the main topic of the thread, the link between WF, Starks and the possible long winter. The Starks (especially Ned) pride honor above most other values. It does seem that the weather changes are due to a lack of Stark in charge of the north or a slight on their honour. WF has been said to be a place of refuge in winter with rich stores yet the crypts are "out of bounds" and the old kings of the north do not welcome guests (unsheathed swords). I think they definitely protect their bodies from the others.

I am thinking that the starks being able to endure winter may be of use when the old gods strike out at those who lack honour. In a possible mirroring of the biblical flood could WF be the arc (with obsidian pipes or foundations) protecting the starks whilst those without honour (cersei, jamie, greyjoys, freys, some of NW are purged). I don't think the Old Gods are controlling the WW though, these seem a seperate evil force.

I think the lessons from the stories of old have to be re-learned by the stark children (inc Jon). Sansa may have to rebuild WF and the stark pack but she needs to wake up to her abilities first. This has started though with her being able to recreate WF so accurately from above, mirroring Brans visions in his falling dream. I think winter is still "coming" and has not actually yet arrived. Once it does all the childrens powers will be needed but I think Jon is the key to success(as AA). I'm still undecided if he is going to fight or marry/sleep with Dany in his quest. I think this story will start and end with the Starks, everything in this thread point to them being key.

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...

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't think I noticed any of those things on my own. One of the reasons I come to these boards is to get insight from people with more talent for literary analysis. I never would have seen redriver's connection between Winterfell and the weather.

Your theory about each of the Starks representing different elements is intriguing. In their time apart they have each been influenced by distinctly different forces. I think I saw someone describe it as 'each side picking a Stark'. Now that winter has come, it will be very interesting to see how they reform their pack. I don't think it will be a completely smooth road. While I don't think they would ever truly be against each other, they have been exposed to influences that have differing world views. They will have to work to become united, but then they will be a truly powerful force.

Images and concepts such as Sansa wondering if the snowfall woke her,to the genuine time absence when she tastes the snowflake lead me to suspect at this point that she will be the Stark to restore Winterfell.

The first Queen of Winter?

I definitely believe she will play a key role in the Stark restoration at Winterfell. I think she will find her own strength in winter. She and Jon seem equally likely to be the leading Stark in Winterfell at the end of the books (I do think Jon will end up as Jon Stark).

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