Nudu Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Everyone on the boards are complaining about how King Robert bankrupt the kingdom but this does not make any sense. How could he spend that much money? I mean all the lords of seven kingdoms paying taxes to him. He just drinks and whores a lot. Maybe tournements. He don't even pay for food because he hunts himself. How much could it worth? He doesn't build anything big or expensive. LF wanted to make the crown in debt so he could make advanteges from a weakened iron throne and chaos. Maybe he just stole that money and manupilated Jon Arryn. We are talking about Littlefinger. Sorry for terrible English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_lord_of_york Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I could buy into this actually. He had complete control of the books to make them how he wanted them to be. "And he thrives on chaos" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I could buy into this actually. He had complete control of the books to make them how he wanted them to be. "And he thrives on chaos"In one Tryion POV the Halfman, who has been made Master of Coin, is reflecting on discovering how LF has been playing games with the Kingdom's finances. One more reason LF is trying to eliminate Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Ultimately the blame goes on Robert, he was king. Kings get all credit when things go good they get the blame for what goes bad. He should have cared enough to watch LF and fire him if he wasnt doing his job well enough. But seems LF didnt care about balancing the budget, everybody else was too stupid for math, or too scared to speak up, or too involved in their own game to worry about the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiDMNDBAMMD Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 There's a thing called good debt and bad debt.The debts that the crown had were promises of gold.The gold the crown made got multiplied ten fold when LF did things like buy low sell high, buy materials, make them quality goods tax them etc. etc. etc.Tyrion marvels at complexity of the it when he takes over as master of coin.Robert, Joffrey and Cersei threw tourney's all the time, extravagant feasts and killed people that owed money to the crown.I don't find it odd that Littlefinger put most of the Crown's debt to the Lannisters. It's a smart move really, it forces Robb to submit to them, and it forces them to defend the crown on the front lines when war and usurpers rise.While Littlefinger's system worked during peace, it would not work during war. Wars are extremely expensive.If Tyrion would've had more time to sort out the books he might have done it but Littlefinger is going to help him take the fall for the murder of a king...The war bankrupted the realm.Ned seems to think that six million is a huge debt but he has no idea how much the crown makes and how much interest they're paying on those loans etc. He doesn't even ask what the annual income of the crown is...I don't think the North is paying their taxes after Robb is declared King in the North, same with Renly and Stannis and Balon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkie Baelish Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Littlefinger was probably stealing money right under Robert's nose the whole time. It explains how he's able to afford having so many people on his payroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_lord_of_york Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guarantee the north the storm lands and the lords of the narrow sea were paying taxes. In that logic the vale wasn't either. Just cuz they helped win the throne doesn't give them the rights to remit taxes. There is no way the richest ad most powerful lords of westeros arnt paying taxes. That's silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Most of the lords were too innumerate to understand finance. Now if they'd earned an accounting-concentration MBA from a decent school, with some extra courses in finance, they'd have no problem understanding LF's skullduggery. They might have been too stupid even to understand the magic and menace of compound interest. Even Tyrion got a headache trying to decipher LF's books when he took over as master of coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loon Lord Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think it's highly likely that littlefinger stole most of the money. At one point it is mentioned that Aerys left a treasury overflowing with gold and when littlefinger was brought in the crown's incomes multiplied by 10. I find it hard to believe that tourneys and drinking could burn through all of that money.When Tyrion is made master of coin he mentions how confusing littlefingers records were and that there was definitely something fishy about them. This would explain how the treasury was always so empty and yet littlefinger was always able to find enough money from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr Baller Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's hard to say because we don't know exactly what Robert's reign was like. Robert had to pay for his tourneys, feasts, his prodigious whore addiction (they don't come cheap), ships like King Robert's Hammer, etc. The crown also has to pay the salaries of the goldcloaks and others in service to it. Jaime notices the dungeons probably have about triple or quadruple the employees that they need, and presumably this excess is present in other areas as well.We see that Cersei's attempt to construst a handful of ships is a rather major undertaking, financially, so I don't think the crown's income is that amazing either.People like to blame Petyr for the realm's financial troubles, but we see in real life that no matter how much income a government has, it'll find a way to spend more. I'll also admit that it's entirely possible Petyr intentionally bankrupted the Crown, but there are two sides to every coin, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerBearroll Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's possible that LF stole some of the money but it's very likely that corruption was everywhere during Robert's reign. We also know that building a couple of ships is expensive from Cersie's POVs and we have to consider that Robert had a very big royal fleet. Those ships are expensive to build but they also require lots of money for maintenance and they had large crews that needed to be paid. We can assume that Robert not only had a far too big navy but also too people employed in places where fewer would have sufficed.It's also very likely that everybody stole money from the crown, not only LF. IIRC Jaime mentions in one of his chapters how the person responsible for the prisons became very rich under Robert, which means there must have been lots of corruption, bribery and theft in the government.Last but not least Robert's feasts and tournaments cost the realms a lot of money as well over the course of 14 years. I also think that the war with Balon was very expensive as well.Basically there are many reasons why the crown went bankrupt and LF is possibly one of these reason but not the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 "The King spends the money, the Master of Coin finds it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Everyone on the boards are complaining about how King Robert bankrupt the kingdom but this does not make any sense.How could he spend that much money?I mean all the lords of seven kingdoms paying taxes to him. He just drinks and whores a lot. Maybe tournements. He don't even pay for food because he hunts himself. How much could it worth?He doesn't build anything big or expensive.LF wanted to make the crown in debt so he could make advanteges from a weakened iron throne and chaos. Maybe he just stole that money and manupilated Jon Arryn. We are talking about Littlefinger.Sorry for terrible English.Yes, I think you figured out exactly what happened, though I think there's one more step. I don't believe LF stole the bulk of the money exactly. I think he has the money tied up in securities that only he knows about. The money isn't available in the treasury, and it looks like debt, but rather, I think he's got a ton of investments floating around that he might access in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 The show makes it look like LF is the biggest pimp in the kingdom. Maybe he was making money providing ho's for Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 The show makes it look like LF is the biggest pimp in the kingdom. Maybe he was making money providing ho's for Robert.In the books LF is a huge pimp too, though I somehow doubt that Robert bankrupted the kingdom by buying whores from LF. The books tell us how LF was making money outside of the whore business, though. He was trading investments on commodities and speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's also very likely that everybody stole money from the crown, not only LF. IIRC Jaime mentions in one of his chapters how the person responsible for the prisons became very rich under Robert, which means there must have been lots of corruption, bribery and theft in the government.This is plausible. There was probably no auditing oversight of expenditure, no accounting controls, probably no proper annual budget either. Even if there was some sham of a budget presented by LF, the top management had ADHD with regard to money ("counting coppers"). Bob was an incompetent chief executive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 LF is the Bernie Madoff of ASOIAF.ETA: He did embezzle funds from the royal treasury for some of his private ventures. The incomes from the Drearfort wouldn't have been able to buy LF the assets he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNine Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 LF is the extremely dangerous combination of incredibly skilled and horribly corrupt. He was constantly investing and screwing with the market, probably a lot of double-dipping and buying up debts, selling government positions and accepting bribes, etc. But i doubt that anything in LF's reports is at all accurate--he was just duping everyone. He created an economic bubble that he could easily profit from, and considering the understanding of economics at the time, he probably could have kept it going for a long time after (and the crash would be huge, but he would be out of it by then). With the massive economic burden of the war, LF just gtfo'd and is going to watch the bubble pop with the Lannisters/Tyrells inside--in the meantime, House Baelish's finances are perfectly safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I am not sure how wealthy the Iron Throne was when Robert became King. There was a Rebellion before Robert`s inauguration, and wars always cost. Also, Robert had some sort of Henry VIII lifestyle, enjoy as much as you can, worry not. I am sure he was buying horses, armors, swords and orginizing tourneys more than regular. He lived, and istead of that, he should have ruled. So, I am not buying the theory in which LF is to blame for financial ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's very, very easy to waste money when nobody can say "No" to you. And Westeros not a modern large economy with a budget of trillions. So I don't get the "Robert couldn't have wasted so much money" argument. Of course he could. 5 tourneys per year with the absurd prize money he put up at the Hand's Tourney would do the trick alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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