Is Sansa's reputation forever ruined?

[danm_999]

Fairly certain she's considered a guest by the masses.

You'd be wrong. Nobody ever thinks that. Nobody ever would think that; she lives with her husband lives in the Red Keep remember. Guest right is a very specific ritual that lasts for one night between a clearly defined guest and host, and is ended usually by symbollic gifts. Sansa had been a resident of the Red Keep for months, lived there permanently, and was married to someone whose fulltime job took place there.

As I said previously, since people think she was jealous of Marge,

Nobody seriously believes that. In Brienne's POV searching for Sansa, people believe it was Tyrion, and if Sansa had anything to do with it, Tyrion forced her. In Ser Arys POV in Dorne, he considers her a victim who was savagely mistreated, but still doesn't think she poisoned Joffrey.

The Lannisters seemed to have kept a tight lid on everything, and have a good PR person so far as it goes.

Not really, even Jaime hears about the wedding feast before he gets to King's Landing.

[eggs]

Nah, I dont think her rep is ruined. Ned was accused of terrible crimes, but people just call bullshit. I doubt people will give much of a damn.

[JaegrM]

You'd be wrong. Nobody ever thinks that. Nobody ever would think that; she lives with her husband lives in the Red Keep remember. Guest right is a very specific ritual that lasts for one night between a clearly defined guest and host, and is ended usually by symbollic gifts. Sansa had been a resident of the Red Keep for months, lived there permanently, and was married to someone whose fulltime job took place there.

Nobody seriously believes that. In Brienne's POV searching for Sansa, people believe it was Tyrion, and if Sansa had anything to do with it, Tyrion forced her. In Ser Arys POV in Dorne, he considers her a victim who was savagely mistreated, but still doesn't think she poisoned Joffrey.

Not really, even Jaime hears about the wedding feast before he gets to King's Landing.

I meant abuse wise about the keeping a tight lid on it.

As far as guest right only lasting a day...

Didn't the Freys stay with Manderly for an extended period of time and he gave them guest gifts while travelling in order to cancel out guest right?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Once the Lannisters are gone I can't see anyone caring too much. And once she makes it back North I don't think anybody will bother going up to find her.

[Minsc]

Actually, thinking about this if I recall correctly is it noted that Sansa had been so nervous about her upcoming escape that night that she hadn't partaken in any of the feast? Therefore, it could be argued that she refused Joffrey's bread and salt at the feast therefore disavowing herself from the obligations of guest right.

[CKPS63]

I think there are so many other suspects flying around for Joffrey's poisoning (Tyrion, the Dornish, the Tyrells) that Sansa isn't exactly linked to the crime in the head of anybody but Cersei.

All she really has to do is wait for a new regime in King's Landing that simply stops caring. Poisoning someone doesn't have the same taboo as breaking guest right (in fact, Sansa using poison is totally in line with cultural expectations, it's a woman's weapon). I mean, if you can be pardoned for murdering a baby, the sky's the limit.

Just like they all forgot and "stopped caring" about Jaime killing Aerys, and how they all finally stopped calling him "Kingslayer?" Oh . . . wait . . . .

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Seems that only the women Tyrells know.

She was married to Tyrion, had a place of honor at the wedding, also- re-read everything Loras and Garlan say on the matter.

Public-wise to all the lords that are there for the wedding especially, she's definitely a guest.

And Also a thought just occured to me, once she marries Tyrion wouldn't her hostage/ward status be null and void?

Marrying into the family that chopped your dads head off. Somehow i dont think this will pass as being a guest to unobjective observers. As for the wedding most would be too scared to say anything, especially with murder happy Joff running the show.

[JaegrM]

Actually, thinking about this if I recall correctly is it noted that Sansa had been so nervous about her upcoming escape that night that she hadn't partaken in any of the feast? Therefore, it could be argued that she refused Joffrey's bread and salt at the feast therefore disavowing herself from the obligations of guest right.

She ate everything, just very small portions.

BUT- people may have not noticed her eating and they could now think "She purposely didn't eat because she's a murderer"

Although, you'd think previous meals in the days/weeks/months/etc. before would still count

[JaegrM]

Just like they all forgot and "stopped caring" about Jaime killing Aerys, and how they all finally stopped calling him "Kingslayer?" Oh . . . wait . . . .

Exactly The Freys, Jaime, and that one Targ accused of Kinslaying.

Reputations don't die, especially when it's juicy gossip.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think anyone is going to draw parallels between what Sansa "did" to Joffrey and what the Freys did to Robb and his men, re: guest right. No one is accusing Sansa of guest-right violation, even if they think she did have a hand in killing Joffrey. Not in the same league, ballpark or sport. Most people are pinning it on Tyrion more than Sansa anyway, and it's entirely possible that by the time she makes herself known again, the Lannisters won't even be in power anymore and no one will be left who would've given a shit.

ETA: And Jaime being a member of the Kingsguard who killed Aerys, to whom he swore a very specific vow, is nowhere near the same as Sansa being vaguely accused of killing Joffrey. That's a very poor comparison.

[Ice Turtle]

It seems to me that Sansa's reputation was ruined most by her marriage to Tyrion, a lot of people care more that she slept with Lannister dwarf than that she probably killed the king.

[JaegrM]

I don't think anyone is going to draw parallels between what Sansa "did" to Joffrey and what the Freys did to Robb and his men, re: guest right. No one is accusing Sansa of guest-right violation, even if they think she did have a hand in killing Joffrey. Not in the same league, ballpark or sport. Most people are pinning it on Tyrion more than Sansa anyway, and it's entirely possible that by the time she makes herself known again, the Lannisters won't even be in power anymore and no one will be left who would've given a shit.

ETA: And Jaime being a member of the Kingsguard who killed Aerys, to whom a swore a very specific vow, is nowhere near the same as Sansa being vaguely accused of killing Joffrey. That's a very poor comparison.

That's kinda like saying the guy who only strangled one person as opposed to the guy who stabbed 10 people is an alright dude

[Minsc]

Maybe, in attempt to cause some chaos Littlefinger will reveal the Tyrell's role in the poisoning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's kinda like saying the guy who only strangled one person as opposed to the guy who stabbed 10 people is an alright dude

If you can find me a passage in the books where Sansa is accused of breaking guest right in the way that the Freys are — that someone in the books thinks of her as explicitly having betrayed guest right, as opposed to "just" murdering the king — let's have it. I'll wait.

The post wasn't about the magnitude of the crime, but about the crime itself. The Freys broke guest right; Sansa did not. I thought that was clear but I guess it wasn't.

[JaegrM]

I don't think anyone is going to draw parallels between what Sansa "did" to Joffrey and what the Freys did to Robb and his men, re: guest right. No one is accusing Sansa of guest-right violation, even if they think she did have a hand in killing Joffrey. Not in the same league, ballpark or sport. Most people are pinning it on Tyrion more than Sansa anyway, and it's entirely possible that by the time she makes herself known again, the Lannisters won't even be in power anymore and no one will be left who would've given a shit.

ETA: And Jaime being a member of the Kingsguard who killed Aerys, to whom he swore a very specific vow, is nowhere near the same as Sansa being vaguely accused of killing Joffrey. That's a very poor comparison.

You don't see Stannis (if he didn't NEED The North) putting her to death (Ignoring a trial where she's proven innocent) putting her to death for this if he came to power?

[danm_999]

I meant abuse wise about the keeping a tight lid on it.

As far as guest right only lasting a day...

Didn't the Freys stay with Manderly for an extended period of time and he gave them guest gifts while travelling in order to cancel out guest right?

I believe you need to redo guest right each night with salt and bread. That's why Robb initially asks for bread and salt when he arrives at the Twins, but then re-earns it at the Red Wedding the subsequent day. Mance also mentions to Jon;

He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. “Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least.

But whatever the specifics, it's still not applicable to Sansa. She starts living, not being a guest, but living in the Red Keep in AGoT.

[JaegrM]

If you can find me a passage in the books where Sansa is accused of breaking guest right in the way that the Freys are — that someone in the books thinks of her as explicitly having betrayed guest right, as opposed to "just" murdering the king — let's have it. I'll wait.

The post wasn't about the magnitude of the crime, but about the crime itself. The Freys broke guest right; Sansa did not. I thought that was clear but I guess it wasn't.

There isn't one (I think) but based on what we KNOW, What I said is in fact the case.

[JaegrM]

I believe you need to redo guest right each night with salt and bread. That's why Robb initially asks for bread and salt when he arrives at the Twins, but then re-earns it at the Red Wedding the subsequent day.

But whatever the specifics, it's still not applicable to Sansa. She starts living, not being a guest, but living in the Red Keep in AGoT.

Did it say he re-acquired guest right at the feast?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You don't see Stannis (if he didn't NEED The North) putting her to death (Ignoring a trial where she's proven innocent) putting her to death for this if he came to power?

... Putting her to death for what? For killing the king — the king who never should've been a king and as such, no one, including Sansa, owed him loyalty or fealty of any kind — that Stannis himself was gunning for?

Stannis executing Sansa for Joffrey's murder without any ironclad proof is pretty damn absurd.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There isn't one (I think) but based on what we KNOW, What I said is in fact the case.

So you're saying that there isn't evidence or citation at all of anyone, ever, at all, in the books thinking of Sansa as breaking guest right, but we're supposed to just take your word for it?

Do better.