Is Sansa's reputation forever ruined?

[danm_999]

Wouldn't her home be The Rock or Winterfell still?

Tyrion doesn't technically live at KL does he?

Of course he does. He's Master of Coin.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Everyone knew Joffrey was a monster. The commoners won't really see her that way, anywhere close to Frey level. I think they'll be able to reason since the Lannisters had something to do with the Red Wedding, it was her way of getting back at Joffrey in the same way.

[greensleeves]

This is what Cersei says in AFFC:

The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor,

but instead

I made her part of mine own household.

She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss.”

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

Cersei and her council never suggest that Sansa broke guest right or that people might believe she did. Earlier in this very same meeting there is talk of the Frey's crime and the fact that the faith is calling for justice.

[butterbumps!]

I agree with your assertion that Sansa broke guest right, but perhaps this should be taken a step further to include how she's also reputed to be a psychopath.

[JaegrM]

This is what Cersei says in AFFC:

The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead

I made her part of mine own household.

She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss.”

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

Cersei and her council never suggest that Sansa broke guest right or that people might believe she did. Earlier in this very same meeting there is talk of the Frey's crime and the fact that the faith is calling for justice.

I took that as either her letting Sansa stay among them (as opposed to a hostage) OR as Cersei is claiming responsibility for the marriage to sound more Mastermind-ish

[JaegrM]

I agree with your assertion that Sansa broke guest right, but perhaps this should be taken a step further to include how she's also reputed to be a psychopath.

I'm on the fence with that theory... leaning towards she's not a psycho, but... not the time or place to pick that wound.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is what Cersei says in AFFC:

The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor,

but instead

I made her part of mine own household.

She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss.”

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

Cersei and her council never suggest that Sansa broke guest right or that people might believe she did. Earlier in this very same meeting there is talk of the Frey's crime and the fact that the faith is calling for justice.

Can this please settle it? PLEASE?

Also Butters, Sansa is totes a sociopath. Only a twisted evil soul could like ... lemoncakes.

[JaegrM]

Can this please settle it? PLEASE?

Also Butters, Sansa is totes a sociopath. Only a twisted evil soul could like ... lemoncakes.

IF the majority feels that she meant this literally, I will concede, but if the majority agrees with what I said in response to his quote then no. It can not settle it.

I'm going to bed, so depending on the responses if there are any tomorrow when I look in, we'll see

[greensleeves]

I'm on the fence with that theory... leaning towards she's not a psycho, but... not the time or place to pick that wound.

I think it's a perfectly valid place to have that discussion. After all, there is plenty of textual evidence suggesting that Sansa is the Great Other. If this is the case, then Joffrey's death will merely be an insignificant addition to her reputation.

[JaegrM]

I think it's a perfectly valid place to have that discussion. After all, there is plenty of textual evidence suggesting that Sansa is the Great Other. If this is the case, then Joffrey's death will merely be an insignificant addition to her reputation.

Makes sense.

Go for it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Sansa is married to Tyrion. Tyrion was the Master of Coin and his residence was KL. A husband's home is also his wife's home, at least in Westeros; therefore KL was obviously Sansa's home, even before she married Tyrion, and so she wasn't a guest. Simple.

[Minsc]

During Tyrion's trial did any accuse him of breaking guest right as that seems like it would have been a major crime to tack on alongside kingslayer and kinslayer?

[butterbumps!]

Regarding Sansa's increasingly flagrant sociopathy, can we even be truly certain that she wasn't the one who masterminded the assassination in the first place? I thought when LF was explaining the Purple Wedding, he mentioned something about how Sansa "blacked out" and went on killing sprees sometimes.*

*(sansa was a resident of the Red Keep, and therefore not a guest. Further to this point, no one in the books ever considers her having broken guest right, so her reputation-- which is based on what people think about someone-- is not "ruined.")

[Lion of Judah]

The North had no love for Joffrey, so even if they believed Sansa poisoned him they wouldn't shun her for the act. He killed Eddard Stark. Joffrey never hid the fact that he abused Sansa, he did that openly for everyone to see, so what about her guest right? After Tyrion's trial no one other than Cersei seems to be hung up on the idea of justice for Joffrey. Not to mention the fact that Cersei's credibility has been shot after the Margery debacle and Sansa never consummating her marriage with Tyrion can be used to distance any association she had with him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

IF the majority feels that she meant this literally, I will concede, but if the majority agrees with what I said in response to his quote then no. It can not settle it.

Considering that just about no one in this thread is buying your guest right argument, I'm going to say that it's probably settled.

[Lyanna Stark]

There isn't one (I think) but based on what we KNOW, What I said is in fact the case.

Well no, there isn't a passage about it because it would be ludicrous. Sansa is a captive and the red keep is her home and jail. Had she poisoned Joffrey she would not have broken guest right. Also Stannis cares more that she is lady Lannister than any poisoning of Joffrey.

[Gelis]

The way I see it, her rep will not be tarnished because she helped kill someone no one really liked. And everyone, sans Cersei, would love Sansa for it. It wasn't like she was the one hosting the wedding, like the Freys, she didn't even know she was going to kill he until after it was all said and done.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Sansa IMO couldn't be called a guest at KL. And if she does go back to the north, I doubt anybody would blame her for killing the person who openly abused her, if that is what it took for her to escape. I don't think anybody would equate her with the Freys, except maybe Cersei.

[Techelles]

Well, the guest right thing seems thoroughly put to bed.

Sansa will be fine. Stannis isn't going to hurt her. God's sake.

[1234567]

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

I think the awkward silence is the key to what the others are thinking and it seems like the abuse stories are by this point making the rounds at court at least. Jaime certainly has a go at Meryn Trant about it in AFFC.

As for Sansa's reputation at large, it is more tricky. We as readers know more than the various separate component POVs. Although she had to do it to save her own life, she very much appeared with Joff in public and was witnessed being "upset" when their betrothal was ended, while at the same time hearing everyone clamour for "No Traitor Queen". She realises that Marg had done no more to make the people love her, than she herself had done to make them hate her. then there is the marriage. Robb and Cat knew she was forced into the marriage, but they still disinherited her because of it, and others may think she had perhaps joined the Lannister's side.

Although holding back sobs and not kneeling in the Sept, she did not make a visible fuss about her distress at having to marry Tyrion. Certainly most of those present would have seen full well that she was upset, but that doesn't mean that outside of them in KL or in the rest of Westeros it might not be suspected that she has sided with the Lannisters (although I suspect LF's PR machine is making the abuses she suffered common gossip, and with Joff dead, people are less scared to gossip about it.

Then there are Lysa's comments about being the 'dwarf's leavings', which suggest there maybe a stigma attached to having been married to Tyrion, not just because he is a Lannister, but because he is a dwarf (Westeros being the enlightened place that it is). While it was gossip in court that the marriage wasn't consummated, that information along with the abuse she suffered does not seem to be common knowledge elsewhere in Westeros and hence we have the 'Lady Lannister' comments from Stannis.

Similarly, no one in the North is trying to find her. After ADWD it is 8 months since her disappearance and apart from those who want the rewards offered by KL and Brienne, no one is bothered about finding her. Manderly for example is looking for Rickon, who as a child is harder to prove (and also being thought dead), but he is looking for him and not the recognisable older sister. It seems Sansa has been written off due to the marriage.

Then there is poisoning Joff. Shae is the only on who named her, and Loras suspects her which would suggest that at least some do think she's responsible. Her flight also makes her look guilty.

Then there are the public rumours, witchcraft, turning into a bat etc. her reputation with the small folk may indeed not be great and it would appear to be very varied in higher circles.

However amongst all this, no one seems to think of her as breaking guest right.