Littlefinger's Downfall

[Blackfish Tully]

And of course they have their suspicions: they showed up with an army of twenty thousand and demanded to know what Littlefinger thought he was doing, and more importantly spend the entire trial being very hostile to him. He made an obvious gain by being made Lord Protector and gaining custody of Sweetrobin. Add on top of that that Myranda has figured out for Nestor that he has Sansa Stark with him as well. He's up to obvious shenanigans.

They came to get rid of Littlefinger because they were pissed at Lysa for her misrule of the Vale not because they suspected Littlefinger of killing Lysa . If they suspected that would they have left him in charge of Robert?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

They came to get rid of Littlefinger because they were pissed at Lysa for her misrule of the Vale not because they suspected Littlefinger of killing Lysa . If they suspected that would they have left him in charge of Robert?

Those armies weren't formed until after they had come together to form the Lords Declarant, and they had no choice but to accept Littlefinger's control of Sweetrobin because they had drunk his wine and eaten his food: they were guests, and couldn't violate guest right by attacking him.

The Eyrie is nearly impregnable, and LF had SR essentially hostage.

[Lee-Sensei]

They came to get rid of Littlefinger because they were pissed at Lysa for her misrule of the Vale not because they suspected Littlefinger of killing Lysa . If they suspected that would they have left him in charge of Robert?

That doesn't make any sense. They went after Lysa died to get rid of LF.

[Blackfish Tully]

That doesn't make any sense. They went after Lysa died to get rid of LF.

what does not make sense? They could not get rid of Lysa . She was Jon Arryn's wife and Robert Arryn's mother so they could not do anything about her but when she died they decided that they could get rid of Littlefinger and take control of Robert but it was not because they believed that Littlefinger killed Lysa but more because they wanted to decide who the Lord Protector is not have one pushed on them by Lysa.

[Lee-Sensei]

what does not make sense? They could not get rid of Lysa . She was Jon Arryn's wife and Robert Arryn's mother so they could not do anything about her but when she died they decided that they could get rid of Littlefinger and take control of Robert but it was not because they believed that Littlefinger killed Lysa but more because they wanted to decide who the Lord Protector is not have one pushed on them by Lysa.

It was because they don't like or want LF around, and it wouldn't surprise me if Yohn Royce suspects LF's involvement in lysas death.

[Blackfish Tully]

It was because they don't like or want LF around, and it wouldn't surprise me if Yohn Royce suspects LF's involvement in lysas death.

Why would Littlefinger kill Lysa ? She was his connection to power in the Vale so killing her makes no sense.

They had no choice to accept Lysa's rule even though she was crazy and prevented them from joining Robb but they decided when Lysa died that they would take control of Robert themselves and decide on who would be Lord Protector . It has nothing to do with not liking Littlefinger , why would they have a problem with him in particular ?

[Lee-Sensei]

Why would Littlefinger kill Lysa ? She was his connection to power in the Vale so killing her makes no sense.

They had no choice to accept Lysa's rule even though she was crazy and prevented them from joining Robb but they decided when Lysa died that they would take control of Robert themselves and decide on who would be Lord Protector . It has nothing to do with not liking Littlefinger , why would they have a problem with him in particular ?

1) If it didn't make any sense, LF wouldn't have done it.

2) I doubt most of them care about Robb.

3) Yohn Royce seems to know that he's a snake and he's faorly low born. Westeros is also a very martial place and LF is no warrior.

[B-rad]

Littlefinger and Lyn Corbray will be running through the woods to track down little Robin and Sansa who have fled for their lives and before Corbray can kill Robin and Littlefinger can bring Sansa back to the Eyrie, Jaime comes who has been sent by Cat to save Sansa and he fights and defeats Lyn Corbray then kills Littlefinger proving that while he was politically adept that still didn't change the fact that he's a weakling that men like Ned, Brandon, and Jaime can smash like a bug. For more info on what I think will happen to LF click here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123846-my-complex-theory/

[Blackfish Tully]

1) If it didn't make any sense, LF wouldn't have done it.

2) I doubt most of them care about Robb.

3) Yohn Royce seems to know that he's a snake and he's faorly low born. Westeros is also a very martial place and LF is no warrior.

1. It would make no sense to the Lord Declarants and anybody else in the Vale . Whether or not it makes sense to Littlefinger is a whole different matter. As far as I remember nobody suspects Littlefinger of killing Lysa because he has zero motive as far as they can see.

2 of course they care about Robert , he's the Lords of the Vale and Jon Arryn's son

3 Bronze Yohn does not like him but he seems the type not to like plenty of people , i doubt he really likes any of the other Lord Declarants and though he probably is well respected in the Vale he's probably not liked very much himself and that will hurt him in the long run against Littlefinger .When he calls the Lords Declarant's in a year will any of them come?

[SnowHeart]

[quote name="Elba the Intoner" post="4160552" timestamp="

She was ready to push Joff to his death and even go with him herself after Joff had Ned killed. I bet that was just a preview of how she will react once she puts together the pieces of what LF has done to her family and her father in particular.

[Blackfish Tully]

Littlefinger and Lyn Corbray will be running through the woods to track down little Robin and Sansa who have fled for their lives and before Corbray can kill Robin and Littlefinger can bring Sansa back to the Eyrie, Jaime comes who has been sent by Cat to save Sansa and he fights and defeats Lyn Corbray then kills Littlefinger proving that while he was politically adept that still didn't change the fact that he's a weakling that men like Ned, Brandon, and Jaime can smash like a bug. For more info on what I think will happen to LF click here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123846-my-complex-theory/

It's winter so nobody is going back to the Eyrie , it would be impossible to get there.

Jaimie has to go a long way in his training with his left hand before he can defeat Lyn Cordray and Lady Forlorn. Littlefinger is also no weakling . He would have received the same martial traning as Edmure at Riverrun so he knows how to fight . He was beaten by Brandon Stark who was 20 when he was only 16 so that's nothing to be ashamed of, how many 16 year olds would have had a chance against Brandon ? Littlefinger puts on this air of defenseless but it's a lie just like everything else about him.

[Nerevanin]

Well, I'd love to see LF rise to the Iron Throne at least for a while but unfortunately it seems like it is inevitable that he dies or at least loses all his power. I suppose his death or downfall comes in the final book. I think the one who causes it will be either Sansa or Tyrion.

Tyrion just hates him and he wanted to remove him already in ACOK but he didn't dare to. If Tyrion finds out that it was LF who blamed the possession of the dagger and later the killing of Joffrey on him, he will do everything to revenge.

Sansa needs him right now and to me she seems to like him (not like she is attracted to him but she likes him like a friend or an uncle or something like that) and he acts like everything he does he does it for her, so she doesn't have a reason to plot against him now. However I think that LF relies a bit too much on Sansa's naivity and gratitude. I definitely can see Sansa betraying him but not now, in ~2 years at minimum, when she is older, more mature and more skilled in the art of intrigues. It's pretty hard to think of a cause that would make her let him down. I doubt she would do it just for fun or something like that. The thing with Ned is more likely but Sansa was present and knows that it was Joffrey who ordered Ned to be killed. Even if someone somehow told her that LF helped to arrest her father, LF might be able to convince her that he just wanted to save the crown from the treason, Ned after all admited it. This might wreck Sansa's trust in LF a bit but I doubt it will be the thing that makes her destroy him. But that could be the case of Rickon. If Davos manages to bring him to the North, he is the trueborn lord of Winterfell (as Bran is believed to be dead). LF might try to convince Sansa to stand against Rickon and to say that it isn't he and have him arrested etc and this could be break-even point. I doubt Sansa will become so greedy and ambitious to turn against her family again, she knows that the first two times she did it, it had disastrous consequences - the first time she lost Lady, the second time Ned was beheaded and she was held hostage in King's Landing. In the moment LF wants her to oppose Rickon, she might realize that he just wants power and after some inner fight she decides to betray him. It would be pretty foolish from LF to try to make her do something like that but if he becomes drunk with power and too sure Sansa's loyalty to him, he can do this fatal mistake.

[B-rad]

It's winter so nobody is going back to the Eyrie , it would be impossible to get there.

Jaimie has to go a long way in his training with his left hand before he can defeat Lyn Cordray and Lady Forlorn. Littlefinger is also no weakling . He would have received the same martial traning as Edmure at Riverrun so he knows how to fight . He was beaten by Brandon Stark who was 20 when he was only 16 so that's nothing to be ashamed of, how many 16 year olds would have had a chance against Brandon ? Littlefinger puts on this air of defenseless but it's a lie just like everything else about him.

He's called Littlefinger im pretty sure he's not a particularly large man. If Brandon were alive current yl and fought LF Brandon would win. Once Jaime progresses enough in his training he will be able to beat the odds and defeat Corbray and LF. Plus if LF received the same training as Edmure (considering he's not a particularly fierce warrior) then LF still wouldn't stand a chance against Jaime and maybe Brienne would come with him and help fight against Corbray.

[AliceRose]

And they know that "Alayne" is Sansa. Myranda Royce effectively fished out that info:

Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.”

“Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised. “Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.”

Myranda's line reads as "Oh, so you know his first name do you?"

Except that Myranda wasn't here to fish out THIS info.

It wasn't Randa's intention to question Sansa about the new Lord Commander. Sansa herself has asked some other news.

“Anya Waynwood? Truly?” The Lords Declarant were down from six to three, it would seem. The day he’d departed the mountain, Petyr Baelish had been confident of winning Symond Templeton to his side, but not so Lady Waynwood. “Was there more?” she (Sansa) asked. The Eyrie was such a lonely place that she was eager for any bit of news from the world beyond, however trivial or insignificant.

“Not from your father, no, but we’ve had other birds. The war goes on, everywhere but here. Riverrun has yielded, but Dragonstone and Storm’s End still hold for Lord Stannis.”

“Lady Lysa was so wise, to keep us out of it.”

Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. “Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady.” She shifted her seat. “Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There’s a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.”

Myranda was by far more concerned to fish out info about a possible new husband for her.

My lord father had hoped to marry me to Harry, but Lady Waynwood would not hear of it. I do not know whether it was me she found unsuitable, or just my dowry.” She gave a sigh. “I do need another husband. I had one once, but I killed him.”

She leaned closer. “Does your father plan to wed again?”

“My father?” Alayne had never considered that. Somehow the notion made her squirm. She found herself remembering the look on Lysa Arryn’s face as she’d tumbled through the Moon Door.

“We all know how devoted he was to Lady Lysa,” said Myranda, “but he cannot mourn forever. He needs a pretty young wife to wash away his grief. I imagine he could have his pick of half the noble maidens in the Vale. Who could be a better husband than our own bold Lord Protector? Though I DO WISH he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”

“His finger?” She blushed again. “I don’t... I never...”

Lady Myranda laughed so loud that Mya Stone glanced back at them. “Never you mind, Alayne, I’m sure it’s large enough.”

[Nerevanin]

Except that Myranda wasn't here to fish out THIS info.

It wasn't Randa's intention to question Sansa about the new Lord Commander. Sansa herself has asked some other news.

Myranda was by far more concerned to fish out info about a possible new husband for her.

In House Royce noble enough to hope to wed Myranda to Lord Paramount of the Trident?

However, I think Myranda wasn't really trying to find out whether LF would be a good potential husband. Petyr warned Sansa that Randa was artful: "Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce. When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool but underneath she's shrewder than her father." Myranda tried to discover something but I doubt she even thought of Alayne being Sansa. I think she believed that Alayne wasn't LF's daughter. My guess is that Randa tried to find out if Alayne and LF were lovers. She was friendly and cheerful and started about the husband thing to distract Sansa and then she asked about the size of Petyr's penis. If Alayne and LF were lovers, she would know it.

[Bironic]

In House Royce noble enough to hope to wed Myranda to Lord Paramount of the Trident?

However, I think Myranda wasn't really trying to find out whether LF would be a good potential husband. Petyr warned Sansa that Randa was artful: "Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce. When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool but underneath she's shrewder than her father." Myranda tried to discover something but I doubt she even thought of Alayne being Sansa. I think she believed that Alayne wasn't LF's daughter. My guess is that Randa tried to find out if Alayne and LF were lovers. She was friendly and cheerful and started about the husband thing to distract Sansa and then she asked about the size of Petyr's penis. If Alayne and LF were lovers, she would know it.

And why would she try to find out about that? A husband that father's bastards on his (supposed) bastard daughter isn't exactly a good husband. At least not for Myranda Royce.

[Nerevanin]

And why would she try to find out about that? A husband that father's bastards on his (supposed) bastard daughter isn't exactly a good husband. At least not for Myranda Royce.

Maybe if they were lovers, Lords Declarants could somehow use it to question LF's marriage to Lysa? Or they or just Myranda can use such information to blackmail LF in the future.

I'm not sure if I understand well the second sentence of your post but I meant that Myranda doesn't plan to marry LF, although it would be a nice bonus for her, in my opinion she just used her current lack of husband as a pretext to find out if they were lovers. Maybe Randa just tried to be funny but like really, do you ask a girl about the size of her father's penis? Even if I wanted to marry her father or sleep with him, his daughter isn't exactly the one I would use as my source of this type of information.

[John Suburbs]

I had totally forgotten about the Mad Mouse! That's interesting.

I think there's plenty of symmetry and meaning for our characters with all the major deaths we've had so far, and they have purpose:

1. Robert Baratheon: well, he had to die for the War to happen.

2. Viserys and Khal Drogo had to die for Dany to have her queen-arc, because otherwise she wouldn't grow into a truly self-reliant leader.

3. Renly: had to die for Stannis, and thus the story at the Wall, to unfold the way that it did.

4. Ned Stark: mentor who had to die for Bran, Arya and Sansa to have their coming of age stories.

5. Same for Robb and Cat. Nothing happens for Arya if she can just take refuge with Robb.

6. Tywin: had to die for Tyrion's character arc.

7. Kevan Lannister: has to die for Cersei to go completely crazy in KL and get burned by all the wildfire she stored underneath it.

8. Joffrey: His death was essential to Tyrion and Sansa's character arcs.

9. Same for Oberyn, and he died in the pursuit of vengeance, which made a point about how those quests usually work out.

10. Quent: Oh Quenton. You sad, sad boy. His death was just great for drama.

Anyone I'm missing? Notice how few of these characters had POV's and the ones that do are mentors to the main protagonists, excepting the Sun's Son.

The only thing with the Mad Mouse: if she gets back to KL, what's then? It's about to be invested with Dragons: Aegon and Dany, and maybe Ironborn. What do they care? If he did manage to grab her, is that how she ends up being saved by Brienne or Sandor on the nearby Quiet Isle? That certainly explain why went living on at all, and Brienne has been looking for Sansa. Would the Faith, by determining her maidenhood, absolve her marriage to Tyrion and Joffrey's murder? (not that those things are gonna matter to anyone for much longer).

Interesting to ponder, though.

I am cursed by the fact that I read these books in a completely different way than other readers. I don't see anybody's story arc, large or small, POV or not, as simply a plot device to further either the story as a whole or any other character's arc. So I am puzzled when people say "Littlelfinger has to die because he has nothing more to contribute to Sansa's story" or "Renley had to die for Stannis' story to evolve the way it did."

To me, deaths and other major events are driven by the forces that led up to those points, not because they were necessary for the plot. If Stannis had died instead of Renly, the plot would have evolved along completely different lines and people would be saying "of course Stannis had to die, because how else was Robb supposed to avenge his father without Renley's help?"

And if you look at it, many deaths were simply pointless the story. Why follow Quentyn all the way from Volantis just to watch him die? (although I'm not 100 percent certain he's dead. I see a little wiggle room in there.) Joffrey as king opens up entirely new possibilities for all sorts of chaos in King's Landing. (And what a plot twist it would have been if the assassination had gone according to plan and it was Tyrion who died, not Joffrey? But that's an entirely different can of worms.)

So when we try to predict the future, I think it's best to avoid using plot necessities or other literary causations to justify theories. Sansa could very well be dead by the end of the next book (what would be more controversial than that?) and Littlefinger would have to rework his plans to rule the world.

Martin says the whole point of his writing is to not let readers get too comfortable thinking that this or that character is safe because they are important to the story. Even major characters die, but the story goes on.

[Blackfish Tully]

He's called Littlefinger im pretty sure he's not a particularly large man. If Brandon were alive current yl and fought LF Brandon would win. Once Jaime progresses enough in his training he will be able to beat the odds and defeat Corbray and LF. Plus if LF received the same training as Edmure (considering he's not a particularly fierce warrior) then LF still wouldn't stand a chance against Jaime and maybe Brienne would come with him and help fight against Corbray.

You do not have to be a large man to be a good fighter. Brandon was a beast so losing to him does not mean he's weak. As for Jaimie versus Lyn Cordray, Jaimie has a long way to go before he's ready for Lady Forlorn.

[Nerevanin]

You do not have to be a large man to be a good fighter. Brandon was a beast so losing to him does not mean he's weak. As for Jaimie versus Lyn Cordray, Jaimie has a long way to go before he's ready for Lady Forlorn.

This. Even if LF wasn't a great fighter back then, he wised up and I'm pretty sure that he improved his fighting skills. It would be a considerable weakness if he wasn't able to defend himself with a sword. Probably he wouldn't be able to win against Jaime with both hands, Brienne, Sandor etc but against a common fighter? Why not? Remember how he met Catelyn in KL: "He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practised flick of his wrist." He doesn't wear sword as he points out in AFFC but he wears the valyrian steel dagger (at least he did so in KL, not sure if it is said in the Vale too) and he showed us that it can be a deadly weapon in his hands.