How long had Tyrion known about the incest?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What actions are you thinking of, exactly?

Seriously, that Tyrion feels bad about it is just not supported in the text anywhere I can see. If you really want to argue that, then it's a good idea to bring something, anything, out to support it.

EDIT: And as for your reply to Lummel. That is not a matter of opinion but you completely fail at backing up your statements with anything from the actual text.

It is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions.

The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

[Lummel]

It is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions.

The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

If the text says Tyrion is happy then there can be no argument that he is happy.

In this case there is only Tyrion I AGOT to go on and I'm curious what sentence, phrase or paragraph you are reading that informs your opinion here, because your view seems unusual.

[Lyanna Stark]

It is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions.

The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

Indeed, as I know the chapter (Tyrion I AGOT) I am also really, really interested in seeiong which paragraph you think supports your reading and opposes mine (and Lummel's).

[Winter's Knight]

It is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions.

The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

But, what is it in the text that makes you think Tyrion regrets his brother's attempt on Bran's life?

For example, I can point to snippets of text from Feast that show Cersei's unease concerning Qyburn's eperimets that can be interpreted as her feeling some sliver of remorse:

Cersei did not like to think about that. The girl had come with her unsuspecting, thinking she was along to serve and pour. Even when Qyburn clapped the chain around her wrist, she had not seemed to understand. The memory still made the queen queasy. The cells were bitter cold. Even the torches shivered. And that foul thing screaming in the darkness . . .

Naturally, it's open to other interpretations but at least I can provide some text to back up my argument.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

If the text says Tyrion is happy then there can be no argument that he is happy.

We are discussing a conversation in the text, not a description of his emotions.

In this case there is only Tyrion I AGOT to go on and I'm curious what sentence, phrase or paragraph you are reading that informs your opinion here, because you view seems unusual.

The entire conversation at the table made me feel that Tyrion felt a bit upset about what happened to Bran, and I got the feeling that Cersei and Jaime felt it too.

I will post quotes when I arrived at my destination.

[The Wolves]

I think Tyrion knew for awhile about the twincest and them spawning. I just don't think he cared enough about it and his loyalty does lie with House Lannister so him saying anything could doom the Lannister.

About him being friendly with the Starks I can say he's not their friend, he did try to minimize his families' crimes against them and he is and will always the Lannister that has shown sympathy and remorse to what was done to them(Cersei, Tywin, Keven, Joffery, and Jamie have not shown the same amount of sympathy Tyrion has shown towards the Starks or others in general) The only Stark Tyrion considers friend is Jon.

I also get that House Lannister is where Tyrion loyalties lie and even though he has shown remorse for myStarks he still stood with his family. I love Tyrion and though he was unfairly prosecuted for Joffery's death I felt very little for him because I kept thinking he knew what his family was and he helped them stay in multiple positions to condemn and blame him for Joffery's murder

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Naturally, it's open to other interpretations but at least I can provide some text to back up my argument.

So can I, which is why I plan to post quotes once I am home.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I guess I am the only one that thinks he did not know. They are 8 years older, and Jaime was a squire and then knighted by 15, and then straight into the KG. Tyrion was at most 7. Cersei was gone not too long after, and they never really talked. I wouldn't think he knew until he heard it, then it clicked.

He definitely knew before the events of the books. I'm saying it would have been around Joffrey's birth that he figured it out.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Indeed. And if he was such a friend to the Starks, then he should have sent Sansa home and not married her and expected to become Lord of Winterfell through her and over her sbilings' dead bodies.

Which is why I stated, "I do not believe that he is a false friend to the Starks, since he shows genuine concern for them. I do believe that his loyalty to his family puts limitations on his relationships with others, as evidenced by his actions.

I believe that the things Tyrion did for the Starks were genuine and not done to illicit favor, nor to be sneaky or under-handed; but his loyalty to his family placed restrictions on the lengths he would go to help others. Tyrion showed genuine remorse for Sansa and her plight and helped in the ways he felt he could, although his loyalty to his family prevented him from releasing her.

Indeed, as I know the chapter (Tyrion I AGOT) I am also really, really interested in seeiong which paragraph you think supports your reading and opposes mine (and Lummel's).

I also know the chapter, as it is one of my favorites. The dynamic between Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime is a joy to read.

For starters, I never stated that I felt any paragraph opposed your reading. As I stated, it is a matter of opinion, because your understanding of the text is based on your reading of the text, especially when it come to interpreting a characters emotions. The text that supports my viewpoint will also always support your viewpoint as well, it all depends on how we choose to view the text.

There's the conversation between Joffrey, Sandor, and Tyrion in the yard. Joffrey and Sandor are discussing Bran and Summer. They are basically making light conversation about Bran dying quickly, and Sandor killing Summer due to the noise the direwolf pup has been making since Bran's fall. Tyrion arrives and promptly insults Joffrey. I always felt that Tyrion insulted him because he was not impressed about the conversation he overheard between Joffrey and Sandor, plus he thinks Joffrey is a horrible human being. Tyrion then tells Joffrey to go offer his comfort to the Starks in reference to Bran's fall. It can be argued that Tyrion only wanted Joffrey to show his face to further advert Lannister suspicion, but I disagree. I believe that the conversation beforehand, and Tyrion feeling that Joffrey is a walking/talking example of why Bran was pushed from the window, upset Tyrion; and that is why he told Joffrey to go offer his comfort to the Starks. In my view, this was further confirmed by Tyrion slapping Joffrey for his insolence.

Then there is the breakfast conversation:

"He has a large heart, our Robert," Jaime said with a lazy smile. There was very little that Jaime took seriously. Tyrion knew that about his brother, and forgave it. During all the terrible years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything.

In my view, Tyrion does not view Bran's fall or Robert's reaction as a laughing matter, but forgives Jaime because...well, he's Jaime. We also see a part of the reasoning behind why Tyrion supports Jaime in mostly all things, and why Tyrion is able to forgive Jaime.

"I stopped by the sickroom last night," Tyrion announced. "There was no change. The maester thought that a hopeful sign."

I do not believe that Tyrion only stopped by the room to see if Bran had died, or if Bran was sure to die for the sake of his siblings. I believe that Tyrion stopped by the room because he had genuine concern for Bran and wanted to show his respects.

Cersei was studying him warily. "What do you mean?" Tyrion gave her a crooked smile. "Why, only that Tommen may get his wish. The maester thinks the boy may yet live." He took a sip of beer.

In my view, Tyrion was basically saying, "Yep, I know what you did and I know why you did it, and you may not get away with it this time, dear sister."

The rest of the conversation was much of the same, especially the end.

"I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say." His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on." Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

In my view, Jaime was confident that Tyrion was on their side until Tyrion basically said, "You guys may finally get caught." Tyrion then reassures him by implying, "I should tell, but I won't betray mine own family."

You may disagree with my opinion on the matter as I disagree with yours; but no where in the text does it explicitly state that Tyrion does not care about what happened to Bran, or that Tyrion cares about what happened to Bran. It is all based on reader interpretation, and it is left to the reader to form their own opinion.

I also feel that Tyrion's gift to Bran, while given at the insistence of Jon, was still a way for Tyrion to show his regret about what happened to Bran. He could have simply came back and gave Bran a message from Jon and some good words, but Tyrion went out of his way to form plans for a saddle.

Yes, Tyrion covers his emotions well with jokes, sarcasm, and arrogance, but I feel that they are there. I do not believe that he is similar to Ned and Davos, but he is not as bad as many other characters in the series.

[Lyanna Stark]

You may disagree with my opinion on the matter as I disagree with yours; but no where in the text does it explicitly state that Tyrion does not care about what happened to Bran, or that Tyrion cares about what happened to Bran. It is all based on reader interpretation, and it is left to the reader to form their own opinion.

And nowhere is it stated that he does care. Instead, we have a couple of things to consider:

It's stated directly that Tyrion has forgiven Jaime all sorts of things on account of him being the only person being nice to Tyrion.

Your point about Tyrion going to check on Bran out of the goodness of his heart and genuine concern is interesting, considering that you one paragraph later say:

In my view, Tyrion was basically saying, "Yep, I know what you did and I know why you did it, and you may not get away with it this time, dear sister."

So you are saying here that on the one hand Tyrion went there out of the goodness of his heart, but he actually knows that Cersei and Jaime are behind it and tells them this in veiled language. Yet Tyrion does not go to the Starks with it, nor anyone else. Clearly, Tyrion's heartfelt concern is honest indeed since he tells nobody and does not act on it at all, nor does he express to anyone at any time that he feels bad about knowing, but not telling. You'd think that he at least feel bad about knowing how's behind it in front of Jon.

I guess this is just one of those deep down good guys thing that you are getting out of the text but the rest of us fail to read? Or the same time of "reader opinion" that would make you drive 60 mph on a 30 mph road since in your opinion, the sign says something different than for the rest of us. It's all just reader opinion, after all, isn't it?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

And nowhere is it stated that he does care.

As I stated, no where in the text does it explicitly state that Tyrion does not care about what happened to Bran, or that Tyrion cares about what happened to Bran.

Instead, we have a couple of things to consider:

It's stated directly that Tyrion has forgiven Jaime all sorts of things on account of him being the only person being nice to Tyrion.

Forgiving someone for doing something does not mean that you agree with what they did, nor does it mean that you don't feel bad for their victim.

Your point about Tyrion going to check on Bran out of the goodness of his heart and genuine concern is interesting, considering that you one paragraph later say:

And in no way do my comments contradict one another.

So you are saying here that on the one hand Tyrion went there out of the goodness of his heart, but he actually knows that Cersei and Jaime are behind it and tells them this in veiled language.

Yes, and there is no reason why both cannot be true.

Yet Tyrion does not go to the Starks with it, nor anyone else. Clearly, Tyrion's heartfelt concern is honest indeed since he tells nobody and does not act on it at all, nor does he express to anyone at any time that he feels bad about knowing, but not telling. You'd think that he at least feel bad about knowing how's behind it in front of Jon.

Tyrion can have honest heartfelt concern about Bran without condemning his siblings.

I guess this is just one of those deep down good guys thing that you are getting out of the text but the rest of us fail to read?

No, it's not. Do not put words in my mouth because I disagree with your opinion of the Tyrion/Bran situation. I do not view him as a "good guy".

Or the same time of "reader opinion" that would make you drive 60 mph on a 30 mph road since in your opinion, the sign says something different than for the rest of us. It's all just reader opinion, after all, isn't it?

Again, no where in the text does it explicitly state that Tyrion does not care about what happened to Bran, or that Tyrion cares about what happened to Bran.

[jons nissa]

So you are saying here that on the one hand Tyrion went there out of the goodness of his heart, but he actually knows that Cersei and Jaime are behind it and tells them this in veiled language. Yet Tyrion does not go to the Starks with it, nor anyone else. Clearly, Tyrion's heartfelt concern is honest indeed since he tells nobody and does not act on it at all, nor does he express to anyone at any time that he feels bad about knowing, but not telling. You'd think that he at least feel bad about knowing how's behind it in front of Jon.

I guess this is just one of those deep down good guys thing that you are getting out of the text but the rest of us fail to read? Or the same time of "reader opinion" that would make you drive 60 mph on a 30 mph road since in your opinion, the sign says something different than for the rest of us. It's all just reader opinion, after all, isn't it?

expecting tyrion to go to the starks and turn in his brother, who he just finished discussing as the only one to show him affection or respect, is completely ludicrous. and even if his relationship with jaime wasn't so strong, asking him to turn in a member of his immediate family is truly asking a great deal. there is no one in this series who is asked this and delivers up a loved one. no one. well, there is stannis but that's a whole other story......

and yes, it is reader interpretation. all of it is. the text shows tyrion being very decent to the starks before the accident and even afterwards. and i agree, he is telling them that you may be discovered. he doesn't say he will try to help his siblings if this comes to pass just as he doesn't help the starks. i believe that is why grrm has jaime ask who's side are you on. tyrion's response is rather vague, since we are going on text alone. he's wounded by the question and loves his family. but then tyrion reprimands joffrey for being so disrespectful about bran. as grrm says, "i try to be subtle with these things."

I believe that the things Tyrion did for the Starks were genuine and not done to illicit favor, nor to be sneaky or under-handed; but his loyalty to his family placed restrictions on the lengths he would go to help others. Tyrion showed genuine remorse for Sansa and her plight and helped in the ways he felt he could, although his loyalty to his family prevented him from releasing her.

----

In my view, Jaime was confident that Tyrion was on their side until Tyrion basically said, "You guys may finally get caught." Tyrion then reassures him by implying, "I should tell, but I won't betray mine own family."

----

I also feel that Tyrion's gift to Bran, while given at the insistence of Jon, was still a way for Tyrion to show his regret about what happened to Bran. He could have simply came back and gave Bran a message from Jon and some good words, but Tyrion went out of his way to form plans for a saddle.

i agree with this completely.

[Lummel]

...and yes, it is reader interpretation. all of it is. the text shows tyrion being very decent to the starks...

well he is their guest.

Although all that we see with regard to Tyrion's behaviour before the assault on Bran is that he speaks nicely to Jon when he runs away from the feast and the only certain niceness afterwards is once Jon with Ghost stand up to Tyrion on the long road to the Wall.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

well he is their guest.

Although all that we see with regard to Tyrion's behaviour before the assault on Bran is that he speaks nicely to Jon when he runs away from the feast and the only certain niceness afterwards is once Jon with Ghost stand up to Tyrion on the long road to the Wall.

True.

Is he nice because he's their guest, or because he genuinely wants to be nice?

Afterwards, is he nice to advert Lannister suspicion, or is he nice because he genuinely wants to be nice?

Is it both?

It's all up to reader interpretation since we do not have explicit statements. I will concede that he is not a "friend" to the Starks, since he does not support their family or house, but I do believe that his motives are not sinister in nature when he "helps" them.

[Kolantero]

What a reasonable thing to expect from a morally grey character in a universe like ASOIAF (you cannot exactly go to the police) and from Tyrion's perspective, where all his, well everything he has and owns, comes from his family ties.

Oh I'm 100% certain that other characters, including "white" (morally) ones, would happily paint a bullseye on the back of a beloved family member for something similar

Because somehow holding Tyrion to impossibly high standards that even "full-good" characters like Ned or Davos would have trouble reaching is a valid comparison even though Tyrion is at best a "grey" character. But hey i guess we ran out of reasons to trash the guy, even though there are plenty.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

The Starks would know the truth, and could get justice? Ned, among others, were big on this whole justice thing. Should we not tell on family members who try to murder others because "what good would come of it"?

Ned justice eh? How bout Ned honor? "Sometimes lies are not without honor"

If Tyrion tells on Jaime, then not only does Jaime die, but Cersei and their children as well. Plus who knows how many people the "Kingslayer" takes down with him.

Jaime flat out tells Catelyn the truth when he's captured at Riverrun. Did she get any justice?(Guess I should hold that thought for now...)

Ned shows he's adopted the Tully words. 1. Family 2. Duty 3. Honor , he lies for family and he lies for duty.

And Tyrion goes to the Wall with Jon as well, as his friend. Again, "nothing good can come out of this" depends if you think Jaime should be punished for his actions, or not. Sure, it would be painful, but what would Ned do? Stannis?

He loses his hand for striking a member of the blood royal the Prince in the North, Bran of Winterfell.

This is just bizarre reasoning. Tyrion should not tell anyone because it would be bad and justice is not needed because it would be bad for Bran. OK.

The morally right thing would have been to confront Jaime about it and tell Ned and Cat about his suspicions. Difficult, yes, disastrous, possibly, but still the right thing to do, morally. In real life, nobody would condone anyone for protecting someone who had attempted to murder a child, not even a relative. (And I say this as a Jaime fan btw).

The problem is not that Jaime pushed Bran out the window, the problem is why he did. What kind of justice would they get?

Justice and morals in this fantasy world are about as real as the gods that all these people pray to.

How long did it take the Red Viper to get justice for his sister Elia? Fifteen years and counting. Was justice served for Tyrion who was innocent of killing Joffrey?

Seriously, that Tyrion feels bad about it is just not supported in the text anywhere I can see. If you really want to argue that, then it's a good idea to bring something, anything, out to support it.

"Winter is coming, warned the Stark words and truly it had come for them with a vengeance. But it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I[Tyrion] so bloody cold?"

a few chapters later in Sansa's POV

"Joffrey deserves a knife doesn't he?....Tell me was there ill feeling between Bran and His Grace as well?...You loved your brothers as much as I love Jaime....Sansa do you know what happened to Bran at Winterfell? I never harmed your brother Bran and I mean no harm to you."

Tyrion feels bad for what has happened to her family because of his family. Namely mostly Joffrey, but Cersei, Jaime and his father played their parts as well.

[jarl the climber]

To answer the OP, I would say that we can not really be sure. I think Tyrion was fairly young when Jaimie was squired out and Cersei went to court with Tywin. I'm under the impression that when Tyrion talked to her about this was the first time she realised that he knew. Its implied that Jaimie all ready knew that Tyrion knew. There does not seem to have been a moment when he actually walked in on them. Tyrion probaly figured it out on the basis of his observations after a period of time. My best guess would be when he was around 6-9 years before the story started, definitely after his own marriage. You have to be in love yourself to recognise the symptons in someone else.

[Kittykatknits]

As to whether Tyrion should have said something about Jaime pushing Bran, I really expect no less of him. Tyrion is a person with a morally skewed compass who always puts the interstis of his house over doing what is right. The first time is with Jaime and we see his oh so rational explanations as to why. In GOT, Tyrion even confirms that he never bets against his family. He expands effort to keep a psychopath on the throne, participates in Tywin's Rains of Castamere over the Starks, and advocates Lannister values - despite the deception his inner dialogue might present to readers.

So, I'm not surprised he helped cover up Bran's attempted murder. It's Tyrions MO, he will always further the corrupt Lannister cause over doing what is right.

[SeanF]

If I were ever in the same position as Tyrion, I'm sure I'd keep silent about both the incest and my suspicions about Bran's murder.

What's the alternative? Open up a can of worms that will risk the execution of my brother, sister, their children, and my father?

[Thendel]

As to whether Tyrion should have said something about Jaime pushing Bran, I really expect no less of him. Tyrion is a person with a morally skewed compass who always puts the interstis of his house over doing what is right. The first time is with Jaime and we see his oh so rational explanations as to why. In GOT, Tyrion even confirms that he never bets against his family. He expands effort to keep a psychopath on the throne, participates in Tywin's Rains of Castamere over the Starks, and advocates Lannister values - despite the deception his inner dialogue might present to readers.

So, I'm not surprised he helped cover up Bran's attempted murder. It's Tyrions MO, he will always further the corrupt Lannister cause over doing what is right.

That's a slightly skewered way of saying that Tyrion is a product of a society where being good to your family is perceived as crucial to what being good means. It's certainly not as sympathetic in lieu of our modern standards, but I find it a little unfair to condemn Tyrion specifically for this viewpoint in a setting where 99% of the characters champion the very same ideal.

OT: I gather Tyrion knew as soon as he was old enough to understand what was going on. It's more than implied Jaime knew of this: I believe Jaime recalls that during the journey to Winterfell, where Jaime was so miserable because he couldn't bang the queen when her husband was there, Tyrion did his best to lighten his spirits. That would certainly suggest that Tyrion not only knew of the incest, he had a mutual understanding with Jaime about this knowledge.