Heresy 45

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just a small note, the slavers. who took the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice Eyes were explicitly stated to be from the Step Stones. The early Andal landing in White Harbor that myself and others have often talked about is the unidentified "sea raiders" that were driven out by King Rickard Stark.

damn you and your "facts"

[Sojourner]

Going with madness!

But you're in the right place for that (according to all the non-believers who will be left in shame when we are all proven correct :devil: )

I like the idea, except that the two documented occasions of the Andals coming to the North were: when the Andal pirates established themselves at the Wolf's Den and were driven out by Brandon Ice-Eyes; and the Manderlies being given the Den as their own (where they found White Harbor)

Also, just gotta add, god I love Manderlies... Wyman is fucking badass as hell and they are at this point as much North if not more than even the Boltons or Karstarks, cause I don't think Wyman would ever betray the Starks at all, whatsoever, for any reason... dude's the shit (sorry for my Manderly uberlove fest, but Wyman is just fucking great)... But the main reason I bring up the Greatest Andal Family that Ever was or Will Be is because I believe that (outside of at the Wall) they are the only Andals to have ever gained any sort of foothold in our beloved North

Thank you for replying.

After thinking about it more, there wouldn't be any real reason for a cover-up in the first place (to the Andals), as i think Catelyn mentions the failed assaults on Moat Cailan in the first place. So other failures probably weren't covered up if they were just run of the mill conquests. So either the scenario ventures forth into speculations on speculations (sudden vistas of Andals working with Night's King to depose a Stark who was doing the crimes NK was accused of, and NK/Andals losing), or it simply did not occur.

I like the idea of Night's King being more than just some power-hungry bastard though. Kind of like how Tyrion saved King's Landing but is maligned as the demonic monkey.

I forgot about the Manderlies. Every true northman came from the south at one time or another, Manderlies just got there a little later.

[Harlan]

Also, just gotta add, god I love Manderlies... Wyman is fucking badass as hell and they are at this point as much North if not more than even the Boltons or Karstarks, cause I don't think Wyman would ever betray the Starks at all, whatsoever, for any reason... dude's the shit (sorry for my Manderly uberlove fest, but Wyman is just fucking great)... But the main reason I bring up the Greatest Andal Family that Ever was or Will Be is because I believe that (outside of at the Wall) they are the only Andals to have ever gained any sort of foothold in our beloved North

:agree:

The manderlies are some of the very few characters remaining in the series that I actually want to read about.

[Harle The Handsome]

Taking into account several recent posts regarding the wall as a barrier to keep men out (or pen in wildlings as sacrifices or quarry). How did Hardholme jibe with these hypotheses?

[Black Crow]

Good night, Your Grace. May your night be dark and full of terrors.

But I like the darkness, and used to visit the terrors on others. we had a little prayer which we used to say before setting off to play in the darkness: Yea though I walk in the shadow of the valley of death I will fear no evil - for I am the meanest son of a bitch in the valley.

You talking Last Hero name unknown or Night's King name unknown? For LH, agree with suggestion; for NK, name unknown easily explained by cover up and striking of from records etc.

I'm talking about the unknown Last Hero - as I pointed out a few heresies back the lack of a name is significant when compared with the Nights King. Old Nan tells Bran that he too was a Brandon Stark from Winterfell. This may be Old Nan telling him (and us) a truth and that he really was one of the many Bran Starks, or she was ramping it up just for his benefit. In contrast, having been turned down on the offer to tell him the story of Bran the Builder, she tells of the Last Hero and conspicuously doesn't identify him either as Bran the Builder doing somethging more exciting than building things, or as any other Stark. Hence the suggestion that rather than being the leader of the happy band, the Last Hero was just that, the last of the thirteen - and he didn't come back either, which is why nobody knows which of the thirteen he was.

[Black Crow]

Taking into account several recent posts regarding the wall as a barrier to keep men out (or pen in wildlings as sacrifices or quarry). How did Hardholme jibe with these hypotheses?

Well enough, providing you don't go with the notion of the wildlings being exiled there.

The core thinking is that the Wildlings are descended of the lost kingdoms, cut off beyond the Wall. They are the free folk because (the Thenns excepted) their kings either died or ran away, leaving them to fend for themselves, which they have done ever since. They have villages and other communities with well established trading links between, common languages and culture and they also trade beyond the Wall, officially at Eastwatch and perhaps less officially elsewhere, so establishing a town in the usual way - a harbour/trading post that grew - is entirely in keeping.

[Joken79]

Well enough, providing you don't go with the notion of the wildlings being exiled there.

The core thinking is that the Wildlings are descended of the lost kingdoms, cut off beyond the Wall. They are the free folk because (the Thenns excepted) their kings either died or ran away, leaving them to fend for themselves, which they have done ever since. They have villages and other communities with well established trading links between, common languages and culture and they also trade beyond the Wall, officially at Eastwatch and perhaps less officially elsewhere, so establishing a town in the usual way - a harbour/trading post that grew - is entirely in keeping.

Why are men north of the wall at all? For me it would be feasible when during the long night all men in the north were killed or a least displaced. But the wall has been built between the (lost) kingdoms in the north and the others south of the wall. Was one oft the aims of those who build the wall to seperate a great number of the first men from the rest?

[Black Crow]

No I think its just a straightforward matter of the Wall being built where it was because it suited the builders. The fact there were human stragglers above it was irrelevant.

[Joken79]

No I think its just a straightforward matter of the Wall being built where it was because it suited the builders. The fact there were human stragglers above it was irrelevant.

I was thinking about the threat men were (are?) for the children and the other old races. When they build such a huge wall and even used great magic to build it, why would they allow men to live north of the wall. There were probably few men left there in comparison to present. But those who build the wall must have known that over time they could become a threat again.

[alienarea]

Something completely different:

Craster is sacrifing his sons and recently all male Starks seem to get killed. Lord Rickard (Ned's father), Brandon (Ned's elder brother), Ned, Benjen is missing presumed dead, Robb, Bran got thrown out the window, Jon Snow (?), ... We assume Rickon is still alive but he is only five or six.

Is there a connection?

[Black Crow]

I was thinking about the threat men were (are?) for the children and the other old races. When they build such a huge wall and even used great magic to build it, why would they allow men to live north of the wall. There were probably few men left there in comparison to present. But those who build the wall must have known that over time they could become a threat again.

But they're not a threat north of the Wall. There aren't many of them and they follow the Old Gods, so why bother. Rooting out every last one of them is pretty much impossible - until the Lords of Winter return and a certain Mance Rayder very obligingly gathers them all together to ship them out...

[Black Crow]

Something completely different:

Craster is sacrifing his sons and recently all male Starks seem to get killed. Lord Rickard (Ned's father), Brandon (Ned's elder brother), Ned, Benjen is missing presumed dead, Robb, Bran got thrown out the window, Jon Snow (?), ... We assume Rickon is still alive but he is only five or six.

Is there a connection?

Not sure what you mean. Craster is giving up his sons to the Others/Sidhe for whatever purpose and has been doing so for years as a conscious if not necessarily a willing act.

Stark sons are certainly going out of fashion but at a variety of seemingly unrelated hands.

Where are you thinking there might be a connection?

[Joken79]

But they're not a threat north of the Wall. There aren't many of them and they follow the Old Gods, so why bother. Rooting out every last one of them is pretty much impossible - until the Lords of Winter return and a certain Mance Rayder very obligingly gathers them all together to ship them out...

Yes, the Lords of Winter don't care if men follow the Old Gods or the New.

They also don't care about if it's men or giant or even animal (?) (the woods are unnatural silent).

I think they are a threat for all living beings.

What makes me think over the ending of the Long Night.

What was the reason for the ending?

Some speculations...

1. The Children have somehow power over the ancient Lords of Winter and helped the Last Hero.

The pact which was already mentioned in the thread.

2. The completion of the wall ended the long night.

3. The Last Hero didn't make a pact with the Children but with the Others.

4. I am unsure, but is it mentioned that the Last Hero found the Children? It may be he found something what he wasn't searching for, but enabled him to end the long night.

[Black Crow]

Some speculations...

1. The Children have somehow power over the ancient Lords of Winter and helped the Last Hero.

The pact which was already mentioned in the thread.

I don't think that this is the case. GRRM has hinted that there's a connection of some kind but I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Children bow down before them rather than the other way around

2. The completion of the wall ended the long night.

Agreed.

3. The Last Hero didn't make a pact with the Children but with the Others.

I rather think that both the Children and the Sidhe must have been party to what was agreed.

4. I am unsure, but is it mentioned that the Last Hero found the Children? It may be he found something what he wasn't searching for, but enabled him to end the long night.

Its not stated. The actual story is cut off before the end, but Bran later remembers Old Nan telling him that the Children helped the Last Hero.

[Joken79]

I rather think that both the Children and the Sidhe must have been party to what was agreed.

During the Long Night the Sidhe were in a position of power. So every pact which is made between them, the Children and men must bring a benefit for them. At least men have to pay a price.

[Black Crow]

During the Long Night the Sidhe were in a position of power. So every pact which is made between them, the Children and men must bring a benefit for them. At least men have to pay a price.

Something like that. I suggest that in geographical terms all of Westeros north of the Neck was overrun during the Long Night and that these were the "dead lands" into which the 13 went in search of the Children to try and win back what the armies of men had lost. In return for whatever the Last Hero promised the lands between the Neck and the Wall were given back to men but those beyond it were and still are lost forever.

[Little Wing]

And just another odd little thing. We've talked before about how Coldhands might be engaged in a bit of play-acting as he leads Bran and the gang towards the cave:

Meera eyed the hill above. "The way looks clear."

"Looks," the ranger muttered darkly. "Can you feel the cold? There's something here. Where are they?"

Clear implication that Craster's boys are either lying in wait or closing in fast, but... what's this about the cold? Yes its the indicator we expect to warn us that the Sidhe are about, but Coldhands' body is dead. How does he feel the cold?

Coldhands is special, as I've argued before, a unique case of a man being raised from death by the Children, the man in question being the Last Hero...

And a final thought for tonight before I wend my way to bed...

If we are to associate Coldhands with Herne the Hunter (or King Herla if you prefer) we come back once again to the question of his identity - and to Old Nan's "warning" that all crows are liars and that in Faerie lore very close attention has to be paid to what you're agreeing - something which Bran may yet live to regret - I'd offer a couple of observations.

He has his face muffled up. This is presumed to hide his identity which may mean that he is indeed Benjen Stark, but could equally, or even more likely, mask the fact that he is a Stark. Remember that the Starks appear to be very recognisable with every Tom, Dick and Harry commenting that Jon has the look of a Stark about him.

So if he's not Benjen Stark, is he Brandon Stark, the Nights King as was? A popular theory, but one I think undermined by the fact he was overthrown by his brother rather than by the Faerie lot and therefore more like to receive six feet of Westerosi soil than be condemned to wander.

Which is why I wonder if he might in fact be the Last Hero - the last of a brotherhood of 13 rangers who set out on a grail quest to seek the aid of the Children to recover what the armies of men had lost.

As we discussed a few Heresies back the fact his name is apparently unknown suggests that he never came back to have boys, racehorses, dogs and schools and other public buildings, named after him.

Yet the Children helped him.

It would however be very much in line with Faerie lore for that help to come with a hidden price, that he should serve them to the end of days or until something unlikely happened, in effect cursed like Herne the Hunter - and might not also the fact of his riding a great elk rather than a horse be a pointer to this.

Ah, finally, we agree :cheers:

[Little Wing]

As for the Drowned God, I'm sure this quote is nothing new to heretics, but I have a question regarding it and some other stuff from "Call of Cthulhu" :

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die".

Now, we know this awesome line from Lovecraft's legendary short story is the direct inspiration for What is dead may never die of the Drowned God worship. In the story, the old follower of Cthulhu's cult, Castro, utters these words, talking about the Old Ones the cult has worshiped for a while (to say the least)...

Are the Old Ones from Lovecraft's story also the inspiration for the Others/Sidhe? Do they need continuous worship like Cthulhu? In the story, it's not only the stars being right that's enough for Cthulhu to awake from his slumber... and then there are the dreams that some people have when Cthulhu is about to rise... any parallels? With the Others/Sidhe, I mean... not only the Drowned God (we know how GRRM mixes and matches) and loves Lovecraft... (who wouldn't) :wideeyed:

Edit - forgot stuff...

[Profion]

I always pictured the Drowned God as figure like Cthulhu... But I´m not sure about this, but it really would be interesting if the cause of the rise of the others is simply that they´re being forgotten. No one believes in then anymore...

[Joken79]

Something like that. I suggest that in geographical terms all of Westeros north of the Neck was overrun during the Long Night and that these were the "dead lands" into which the 13 went in search of the Children to try and win back what the armies of men had lost. In return for whatever the Last Hero promised the lands between the Neck and the Wall were given back to men but those beyond it were and still are lost forever.

Accumulating my speculations:

The Last Hero made a pact with the Children and/or Sidhe. The consequence was the building of the wall. When the building of the wall was finished, the Long Night ended. I think of the wall as the visual sign of the pact, a seal. And when the pact is broken, the "seal" is broken, the wall must fall.

Perhaps Bran the Builder is the one who signed the pact. He didn't build the wall, as others already mentioned, but the signing of the pact, or the price he paid, made the building of the wall possible.

The reason behind the breaking of the pact (on purpose or not on purpose) is still unknown but I think it has to do with the whole "King of Winter" story.

I recently stumbled in the wiki over the last words of Maester Aemon to Jon:

“You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

There might be some foreshadowing in it and not only advice for the Lord Commander.

The boy IS killed, let's see what man will be born.