Heresy 45

[Toccs]

Well, yeah, but I wasn't talking about Cthulhu himself as much as the Old Ones from the story... Cthulhu is just a high priest of sorts IIRC... anyway, I'm only seeing them loosely tied to the Others/Sidhe, just wanted to hear thoughts on it :)

Cthulhu is one of the Great Old Ones.

Its years since I read any Lovecraft but I likewise tend to see him as something not unlike Cthulhu and if anything was a candidate for the Great Other it might be him, but I don't see a direct connection with the Sidhe.

Rather, I'd suggest its not simply a matter of the Others/Sidhe coming back but that the rising power of magic is awakening all sorts of "Old Powers", not just those of Ice and Fire. If Ice and Fire have somehow upset the balance it doesn't necessarily follow that the other powers will stand neutral and may even (if the Drowned God is based on Cthulhu) turn out to be a good deal worse.

Well there have been increasing reports of krakens bringing down ships since the story began. The characters who hear these reports tend to dismiss them immediately as irrelevant, much like with the reports of Dany's dragons. What's interesting is that the readers themselves have also been dismissing them.

[redriver]

Comets rarely hit planets, and if has the size to be seen from far, them doesn´t matter where it will hit, whole Westeros would be gone...no need for the others to wake... Though it kinda made me think, perhaps the fall of a huge meteor is the cause of the Long Night? We know that a huge asteroid fall can produce a huge debrits that will stop the light of the sun from heating the planet for months (much like happened with the dinossaur), and the planet enters some kind of Ice age, perhaps a similar event in smaller scale made the planet get colder and gave the Others the chance to spread through the continent? I don´t remember if GRRM had said something about the LN being caused by magic...

Building on what you've written here,perhaps Joramun blew the Horn of Winter literally out of the sky.We tend to take it to mean that Joramun played it like a musical instrument.

But perhaps when what was an asteroid entered orbit it blew up,and perhaps this explosion was attributed to Joramun by the bards of the day.This is not an unlikely scenario,even within our own equally unfathomable history.

In terms of squaring this with the fantasy cause,perhaps the celestial bodies are science,whereas what was waiting to be woken are fantasy?

[Tyryan Lannister]

God damn it I hate it when you guys go through a couple of pages while I'm busy at the studio and then go to the bar before coming home and getting on... align yourselves with my schedule dammit!

[Toccs]

God damn it I hate it when you guys go through a couple of pages while I'm busy at the studio and then go to the bar before coming home and getting on... align yourselves with my schedule dammit!

Yeah I hear that, the worst part about the 8 hour work day is knowing how far behind the Heresy thread I'm going to be when I get home.

[The Chequered Raven]

Point is, if he never came back, who would know that he was the last one? What if actually three or four of the group got to the children but never returned? Or, what if no one got to the children at all? Alternatively, how would we know for sure that Old Nan's story about the Last Hero is valid if there was no one coming back sharing the story? Or are you suggesting that children told someone who told someone who told Old Nan? I seriously doubt that. So, existence of the Last Hero is only an assumption of the survivors who may have thought that there must have been the very last of the group reaching the children, because things got better. But, in and by itself IF the children indeed helped humanity, doesn't really mean that any of the humans reached them. Maybe the children just acted on their own accord? So the Last Hero is just that, a hypothesis.

Also, wouldn't it be known at some point when the band of heroes was gathering who they were exactly? Someone making the record of Jons and Mats and Harries heading off into the wild seeking help? If there is an account of the group forming, why isn't there at least some info on who the members were?

Concerning Old Nan - surely we have to take her storys well well salted, but I think they are always based on some real incident. And we must take in mind that these storys were always passed on orally, and not written down. Over the years they become more and more like farytales with the truth just hidden in the background.

I think at least one has reached or found the CotF, and wahatever happend then, has reached mankind via tales from the Children. In former times there must have been much more contact between the Children and Mankind, so the story could have been passed on.

Which one in detail did the heroic deed will surely been lost in time, and we can assume that it will always connected with the leader, even if in fact it was maybe just a squire.

[Toccs]

Concerning the issue of whether or not the Children were the ones to tell humans about the Last Hero, remember that the Children and the First Men continued to coexist all over Westeros for centuries after the Long Night. That's plenty of time for the story (at least the part the Children were happy to share) to be spread from the Children to the First Men

[Black Crow]

God damn it I hate it when you guys go through a couple of pages while I'm busy at the studio and then go to the bar before coming home and getting on... align yourselves with my schedule dammit!

Your schedule - here I am 6 hours agead of most of you... mind you its a bit like trying to reconcile who's actually doing what and when in GRRM's world

[Black Crow]

Concerning the issue of whether or not the Children were the ones to tell humans about the Last Hero, remember that the Children and the First Men continued to coexist all over Westeros for centuries after the Long Night. That's plenty of time for the story (at least the part the Children were happy to share) to be spread from the Children to the First Men

Somebody did suggest back aways that the reason the 13 had to set off on a quest to find the Chiuldren was because the First Men had not yet adopted the "secret Gods of the Woods".

Maester Luwin is curiously vague on this:

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

Although he mentions the Long Night he says nothing about how it ended - or about the Wall for that matter - but while the statement that the First Men took up the worship of the secret gods "In time" sounds like a gradual process, I do like the idea that "in time" was after the Long Night and the accepting of the secret gods was part of the price. Essentially a variant of the Christ story. The Children helped him, but he then had to sacrifice himself for the salvation of mankind.

[Black Crow]

And just a very wicked thought following on from that...

Those who walk in the light worship a god named R'hllor, a jealous god who demands sacrifice and the burning of his enemies, the chief of whom is the Great Other, who may not be named.

In the cold north and above all in the darkness hated and feared by the worshipers of R'hllor there are other gods, and a hero who sacrificed himself, but has no name...

[Toccs]

Somebody did suggest back aways that the reason the 13 had to set off on a quest to find the Chiuldren was because the First Men had not yet adopted the "secret Gods of the Woods".

Maester Luwin is curiously vague on this:

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

Although he mentions the Long Night he says nothing about how it ended - or about the Wall for that matter - but while the statement that the First Men took up the worship of the secret gods "In time" sounds like a gradual process, I do like the idea that "in time" was after the Long Night and the accepting of the secret gods was part of the price. Essentially a variant of the Christ story. The Children helped him, but he then had to sacrifice himself for the salvation of mankind.

Yeah I agree with that interpretation. I was more pointing out that the idea that the First Men only heard about the Last Hero's exploits and success from the Children is plausible because we know that the First Men and Children were interacting for centuries after the Long Night and the Last Hero. So if the Last Hero never returned to the world of men, we know that the Children did and that they stayed there for sometime.

Following the line of thought regarding the First Men not adopting the Old Gods until after the Long Night, I suspect that this could be a big part of why they were hit so badly during it and the Children apparently were not.

[Toccs]

And just a very wicked thought following on from that...

Those who walk in the light worship a god named R'hllor, a jealous god who demands sacrifice and the burning of his enemies, the chief of whom is the Great Other, who may not be named.

In the cold north and above all in the darkness hated and feared by the worshipers of R'hllor there are other gods, and a hero who sacrificed himself, but has no name...

Brilliant.

[alienarea]

And just a very wicked thought following on from that...

Those who walk in the light worship a god named R'hllor, a jealous god who demands sacrifice and the burning of his enemies, the chief of whom is the Great Other, who may not be named.

In the cold north and above all in the darkness hated and feared by the worshipers of R'hllor there are other gods, and a hero who sacrificed himself, but has no name...

And of course there is a nordic god who sacrificed himself. Who gave an eye to see the future. Who is accompanied by two ravens and two wolves.

Maybe a rereading of "The Rhinegold" is overdue.

[Profion]

And of course there is a nordic god who sacrificed himself. Who gave an eye to see the future. Who is accompanied by two ravens and two wolves.

Maybe a rereading of "The Rhinegold" is overdue.

Odin is more associated with Bloodraven figure... at least I think so... Could The Great Other not being named because his name is R´hllor?

[Black Crow]

I have suggested that before because it seems the most obvious explanation as to why his name may never be spoken.

[Little Wing]

Cthulhu is one of the Great Old Ones.

Yes, I know. What I meant is, my question was more about the Old Ones in general, not just Cthulhu....

And in other news, GRRM recommends books.

[Mace Cooterian]

Yes, I know. What I meant is, my question was more about the Old Ones in general, not just Cthulhu....

And in other news, GRRM recommends books.

Thank you Witch of Whispers. Two things caught my attention:

1. A lot of references to waiting and waiting and waiting. Wonder what that means? :bawl:

2. GRRM echoing that historical fiction is important to ASoIaF:

"It has always been my belief that epic fantasy and historical fiction are sisters under the skin, as I have said in many an interview. A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE draws as much on the traditions of historical fiction as it does on those of fantasy..."

[Joken79]

And just a very wicked thought following on from that...

Those who walk in the light worship a god named R'hllor, a jealous god who demands sacrifice and the burning of his enemies, the chief of whom is the Great Other, who may not be named.

In the cold north and above all in the darkness hated and feared by the worshipers of R'hllor there are other gods, and a hero who sacrificed himself, but has no name...

I like this one too. I go a step further and suspect this hero to be the first (human) King of Winter (the whole King of Winter story took the center of my thoughts about ASOIAF and doesn't let me go :laugh:).

[mrbutabara]

And just a very wicked thought following on from that...

Those who walk in the light worship a god named R'hllor, a jealous god who demands sacrifice and the burning of his enemies, the chief of whom is the Great Other, who may not be named.

In the cold north and above all in the darkness hated and feared by the worshipers of R'hllor there are other gods, and a hero who sacrificed himself, but has no name...

With this thought, could whatever Bran saw behind the "curtain of light" be what the Red Lot call R'hllor?

Maybe the reason R'hllor seems to be obsessed with fire is because it's so damn cold in The Land of Always Winter. :P

[brut]

Concerning Old Nan - surely we have to take her storys well well salted, but I think they are always based on some real incident. And we must take in mind that these storys were always passed on orally, and not written down. Over the years they become more and more like farytales with the truth just hidden in the background.

I think at least one has reached or found the CotF, and wahatever happend then, has reached mankind via tales from the Children. In former times there must have been much more contact between the Children and Mankind, so the story could have been passed on.

Which one in detail did the heroic deed will surely been lost in time, and we can assume that it will always connected with the leader, even if in fact it was maybe just a squire.

I do appreciate discounting for the time factor and illiteracy, but look at the examples. Jason and Argonauts set out to seek the Golden Fleece, and it's been what, 3,000 years ago? We still know it was Jason and Heracles, Peleus, Orpheus, Euphemus, and others joining him. Hell, we still know the name of the ship, irrespective of the fact that some of them returned. Odysseus, story definitely more than 3,000 years old. Caucasian legends of Amirani (demigod, prototype of Prometheus) who was believed to sacrifice himself for humanity and introduce us to the metalworks, effectively triggering bronze age. Amirani and his brothers fighting demons, and taking on the God himself for which he was buried alive and a mountain was raised above his tomb. So that is what, 5,000 years ago? Point is, all these came to us through verbal accounts, but we still know the names of the legendary heroes and would probably be able to identify them in thousands of years to come.

So, no, the lack of the Last Hero's name or the names of his sidekicks is definitely not "natural".

On the other side, why would we believe that the children sat down with humans and chit chatted all the heroics of the Last Hero? Not like they are super communicative now, and I personally doubt they ever were. Moreover, considering the extinction that the children underwent at the hands of the invading First Men, why would they suddenly share epos with them? Especially if we assume that the children are the Other race that used to oppose humanity and was forced into a Pact giving up control over the land.

[Black Crow]

Depends how its told. I can cite plenty of more recent historical examples where one side will speak of the deeds of some brave man in a blue bonnet, or with fair hair or some other distinguishing feature, who refused to run away or stood on a bridge or rallied his men or whatever. They never knew his name but they remember how he died.

In this case if some kind of sacrifice had to be made and he stepped forward willingly, then they might never have known let along remembered his name, just the fact of his doing it.

The problem with this story as always is not just that we don't know the name of the Last Hero but we don't know what he did and why.