Heresy 45

[Mace Cooterian]

Didn't realize how late it was. Sun should be rising over the North Sea about now, so forget about black or white shadows....you probably should start looking busy!!!

[Black Crow]

Sun's up...

[Black Crow]

This is an interesting thought. Melisandre needed to draw life out of Stannis to create the two shadowbabies. Both shadowbabies were shadows of Stannis. Both were fire magic, a by product of fire is smoke. The shadowbabies have properties like smoke, swirling and taking shape and then dissipating.

If the White Walkers are created from the lives of Craster's sons, the life is drawn from those children to create the light or ice babies. Could it be that the whole lives of those babies are used up and thus the ice babies have a more substantial life? The by product of ice magic is ice. The White Walkers/ice babies have properties like ice, and dissipate into swirls of mist and melt into water puddles....

It seems logical that ice magic should be equal to fire magic. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that there will be someone equal to Melisandre on the side of ice. If it isn't Bloodraven or Bran, then its Jon. We suspect that Melisandre isn't exactly human, but a human that was given to fire and perhaps even reborn through fire. She doesn't need to eat, her "faith" sustains her. Jon, I suspect, will experience in similar fashion, a rebirth in ice. He isn't going through this willingly, as I suspect Melisandre hadn't either, but he will embrace it just the same.

I like both points, but it then does beg the question as to who is doing the creating of the white walkers and easy answers like "the Great Other" aint acceptable on this thread, we demand more nuanced, thoughtful ideas. (Solutions take longer.) At a very basic level we've seen Mel create her black shadows, we're a bit far into the story to meet a total stranger doing the white ones - unless the late and unlamented Craster was himself a sorceror of no ordinary talent. :cool4:

ETA: one of the problems I have in equating Mel's shadows with the boys from up north is that description:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That clearly tells us that they are alive (but different) while the "beautiful" and the "elegant" don't sound like we're talking about anything literally coming from Craster's body - or Stark ones.

[Tyryan Lannister]

As they (whoever they are) would say...that is freakin golden.

I've read two posts on this thread in the past month that had me take pause for several minutes to compose myself. The one above is one of them; the other was @Tocc's about some Stark or Bolton messing around in the horse stable.

Can someone please tell me where you will find more laughs than this anywhere else on this forum?

Got a good one for ya (not ASOIAF related)

Guy 1: So, how do you guys normally deal with really annoying, stupid clients in the studio?

Guy 2: Well, how did you deal with unruly customers at your previous employment?

Guy 1: My last job was being stationed in Iraq... so we just shot em.

[Harle The Handsome]

Touching back on a post regarding still knowing the names of people 5000 years ago I wanted to illustrate a point by using the books of the Bible as an example. The Jesus in the New Testament is a sun god and the stories about him and his 12 disciples have origins in the stars, constellations and astrology. Just because these stories were written down thousands of years ago doesn't mean these were actual people in history.

OK, I have to stop you there. It is one thing to say Jesus was not born to a virgin (you are almost certainly correct), you can say he borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism (he most certainly did), but to say he never existed is a deranged and cynical proposition. There was contemporary texts from both Roman and Hebrew perspectives discussing him.

Quite frankly, I am almost as embarrassed for you for saying that as I am listening to a Fundamentalist try to convince me the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

[Melifeather]

I like both points, but it then does beg the question as to who is doing the creating of the white walkers and easy answers like "the Great Other" aint acceptable on this thread, we demand more nuanced, thoughtful ideas. (Solutions take longer.) At a very basic level we've seen Mel create her black shadows, we're a bit far into the story to meet a total stranger doing the white ones - unless the late and unlamented Craster was himself a sorceror of no ordinary talent. :cool4:

ETA: one of the problems I have in equating Mel's shadows with the boys from up north is that description:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That clearly tells us that they are alive (but different) while the "beautiful" and the "elegant" don't sound like we're talking about anything literally coming from Craster's body - or Stark ones.

Are you saying that my posts aren't nuanced or thoughful enough for you?

There could be someone else creating the White Walkers. They could be doing it themselves if ice preserves and they managed to stay "alive" all this time. Or the Children could be the creators and it would explain all the bones in their caves.

OK, I have to stop you there. It is one thing to say Jesus was not born to a virgin (you are almost certainly correct), you can say he borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism (he most certainly did), but to say he never existed is a deranged and cynical proposition. There was contemporary texts from both Roman and Hebrew perspectives discussing him.

Quite frankly, I am almost as embarrassed for you for saying that as I am listening to a Fundamentalist try to convince me the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

What evidence is there? Writings? There are writings about Roman and Greek gods too and nobody thinks they were real. Everything about Jesus is a description of the sun. I've posted the following before and I beg the patience of Black Crow and others, and I promise not to derail this thread, but I have to defend my position with facts.

“For the LORD your God is a consuming fire…” and “For the lord God is a sun and shield”. (Psalms 84:11 and Deuteronomy 4:24)

Ezekiel, “And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about 25 men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshipping the sun toward the east.”

Jesus as the sun. Here are some familiar phrases used to describe Jesus that are in fact references to the actual sun:

The sun is the “Light” of the World." (John 8:12)

The sun is “anointed” when its rays dip into the sea.

The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or "savior" during the day.

The sun wears a corona "crown of thorns" or halo.

The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection. (John 6:19)

The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.

The sun at 12 noon is "Most High" in the sky; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.

The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.

The sun's warmth turns water into wine through ripening grapes

An astrological age, or phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes, is a time period in which passing through 12 ages takes about 25,920 years. We are currently in the age of Pisces, the symbol of which is two fishes. Whenever we see references to Pisces in the Bible represented by Jesus , we also see two fishes. The age before Pisces was Aries, the symbol of which is the Ram, and the age before Aries was Taurus, the symbol of which is the Bull. In the Old Testament, when Moses came down with the 10 commandments, the people were worshipping a golden bull calf (Taurus) which was the symbol for the earlier sun-god religion that worshipped Mithras. Moses represented the new age of Aries the Ram. That is why there was fighting amongst the people for not moving into the new age of Aries and shed the old age of Taurus. It is also why Jews even today still blow the Ram’s horn.

Fast forward to today, we are living in the latter part of the Age of Pisces. In the year 2600, it has been calculated that we will be entering the Age of Aquarius and there will be an attempt by astrologers to calculate the entry of the spring equinox point into the constellation of Aquarius. In the New Testament, Jesus’s followers asked him when the next Passover (age) will be and Jesus replied, “Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there, shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water (the symbol for Aquarius)….follow him into the house where he entereth in…” – Luke 22:10

[The Chequered Raven]

I wonder... Quaithe says "Beware all these cryptically spelled out dudes", seemingly implying that Dany needs to be warned that they are coming. But is it so much a warning of bad omens, a warning of good warnings, or a mixture of both?

I'm thinking a mixture of both, spelled out bell curve type order with the middle of the curve being those whom she should take into her council and befriend (while still being wary of them). With this we get:

DANGER WILL ROBINSON: Pale Mare (flux), Perfumed Seneschal (Illyrio, Vary, Reznak, or who knows who else)

I WOULDN'T DO THAT IF I WERE YOU: Kraken (Vic and/or Euron), Mummer's Dragon ((f)Aegon)

KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE: Sun's son (Quent), Dark Flame (Moqorro)

AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER: Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (JonCon)

And I'd say the importance of the pairings is that the first two groupings are things that will only bring death and destruction and hinder her, while the latter two could be very beneficial is used correctly, with the differences inside the two groups being that PM, PS, L, and G will bring their outcomes quite deliberately, while K, MD, SS, and DF will provide their outcomes accidentally--which we already have had happen with Quentyn, who i believe has helped Dany's overall cause of getting to Westeros and whatever it is that she will do there by accidentally setting the dragons on the city (and all the extra bits that are now coming with that, ie Tatters joining Barry, she still has two Dornish knights in her possession, etc.)

I have to disagree here - the prophesy states clearly:

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"Remember the Undying" I read as: Like the Undying, they want to use you for their own benefit and agenda.

[theriveryeti]

I'm kind of at a loss for why Tyrion would require a warning...unless she doesn't want her reputation tied up with his.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm kind of at a loss for why Tyrion would require a warning...unless she doesn't want her reputation tied up with his.

he's caused more chaos than all the others combined. his loyalty is only to himself, he's devious, highly intelligent, and nowhere near trustworthy. I'd say that requires warning.

[Lummel]

I'm kind of at a loss for why Tyrion would require a warning...unless she doesn't want her reputation tied up with his.

Tyrion himself tells Aegon to trust no one! And as Mulled Wino points out that goes double for Tyrion himself.

[WindsOfWinter]

I'm kind of at a loss for why Tyrion would require a warning...unless she doesn't want her reputation tied up with his.

We don't know how things turn out should Dany ever actually land in Westeros, and Tyrion may not be loyal to her in the end. Generally, I'm not convinced Quaithe is on Dany's side, though, so she's probably warning her about every influential person crossing her way.

[Roi Woodt]

If the White Walkers are created from the lives of Craster's sons, the life is drawn from those children to create the light or ice babies. Could it be that the whole lives of those babies are used up and thus the ice babies have a more substantial life?

Only death can pay for live, the lives of Craster's sons are imo indeed a prize to animate death things. However, I think they are used to wake icy spiders (just like the dragons).

Winter is coming...

[greensleeves]

Only death can pay for live, the lives of Craster's sons are imo indeed a prize to animate death things. However, I think they are used to wake icy spiders (just like the dragons).

Winter is coming...

It's interesting. I tend to forget about the ice spiders. It's sort of a strange animal to be made out of ice. Well, I guess I've never heard of a spider that had any trouble with a wall either.

[wolfmaid7]

I like both points, but it then does beg the question as to who is doing the creating of the white walkers and easy answers like "the Great Other" aint acceptable on this thread, we demand more nuanced, thoughtful ideas. (Solutions take longer.) At a very basic level we've seen Mel create her black shadows, we're a bit far into the story to meet a total stranger doing the white ones - unless the late and unlamented Craster was himself a sorceror of no ordinary talent. :cool4:

ETA: one of the problems I have in equating Mel's shadows with the boys from up north is that description:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That clearly tells us that they are alive (but different) while the "beautiful" and the "elegant" don't sound like we're talking about anything literally coming from Craster's body - or Stark ones.

I'm looking for a figure like Mother Corpse( The Goon) some type of Fae queen or something.

[wolfmaid7]

It's interesting. I tend to forget about the ice spiders. It's sort of a strange animal to be made out of ice. Well, I guess I've never heard of a spider that had any trouble with a wall either.

Hey there was that one SyFy movie it totally sucked :ack:

[wolfmaid7]

I have to disagree here - the prophesy states clearly:

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"Remember the Undying" I read as: Like the Undying, they want to use you for their own benefit and agenda.

I have to agree with you on that,she totally black listed them as dangers to Dany.

What's interesting she tells Dany of the Others but if they were some kind of evil i would liked her to say like " Dany these things are the real threat".People are so nonchalant about the Others ( except Mel).

[Greenfyre]

At a very basic level we've seen Mel create her black shadows, we're a bit far into the story to meet a total stranger doing the white ones - unless the late and unlamented Craster was himself a sorceror of no ordinary talent.

It may seem so, but we're also a bit far into the story -- only two books to go! -- for Martin to reveal that a gateway to Faerie was opened by a hidden Crow/Morrigen goddess, allowing the Others/Sidhe to come through.

I mean, really... dimension ex machina? Nobody in Westeros knew about this hidden dimension, there were no tales or legends, nothing?

I think Feather Crystal is skating fairly close to the truth on this particular topic.

[Black Crow]

Launching Heresy 46

[Sheogorath]

I have to agree with you on that,she totally black listed them as dangers to Dany.

What's interesting she tells Dany of the Others but if they were some kind of evil i would liked her to say like " Dany these things are the real threat".People are so nonchalant about the Others ( except Mel).

I have to disagree here - the prophesy states clearly:

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"Remember the Undying" I read as: Like the Undying, they want to use you for their own benefit and agenda.

This is where I get mixed feeling about Quathe. I do think it is good advice to trust no one, Dany certainly cannot trust herself lol. She is terrible at making decisions. When I read all of Quathes lines one after another, it sounds to me like she is trying to make Dany paranoid. If I was trying to make a Targaryen go mad, I would do what Quathe is doing.

[Black Crow]

I have to agree with you on that,she totally black listed them as dangers to Dany.

What's interesting she tells Dany of the Others but if they were some kind of evil i would liked her to say like " Dany these things are the real threat".People are so nonchalant about the Others ( except Mel).

Also no. The others referred to by Quaithe are the Kraken, Dark Flame etc etc.

And with that I'll wrap this one and invite you to this week's party just opened in no.46