Heresy 45

[Black Crow]

I think we've fallen into a trap of opposites here. Why can't everyone be accessing the same magic while using it differently? Just because some seem to be associated with "ice" and some with "fire" doesn't mean they are all coming from some polar opposite life forces. What's the word for that, manicheistic?

It's the song of ice AND fire, not ice vs fire. We all make the assumption of opposition, but maybe the point is the synthesis. This would be the symbolic significance of Jon's parentage, and would underscore the foolishness of fundamentalists like Mel.

I, for one, dont see the white walkers being anything more than earth bound creatures doing their thing, subject to the same fallibilities of judgement and perception as anyone, Attributing their powers to their gods as wrongly as anyone else.

The commonality of magic is something we've discussed much and more on this thread (to coin a phrase) and we've also discussed the differing concepts of natural magic and worked magic. I think that the differences between the manifestations of the Sidhe and Mel's black shadows may be down to the former, as a fairie race, doing what comes natural, while Mel is working the magic to produce something unnatural and temporary.

As to the Song of Ice and fire, that's a matter open for interpretation. There is indeed a popular school of thought which holds that it relates to the two being brought into harmony; much favoured by those he believe that R+L=J and that as both Targaryen and Stark Jon Snow embodies both Ice and Fire. On the other hand song is also used in Martin's World as a metaphor for conflict. When Sam and Gilly are discussing what to name Dalla's son, Gilly points out that he was born with swords singing around him and they settle on Aemon Steelsong. In that context the Song of Ice and Fire may indeed be the Battle between Ice and Fire - although ultimately it could be both.

[The Chequered Raven]

The commonality of magic is something we've discussed much and more on this thread (to coin a phrase) and we've also discussed the differing concepts of natural magic and worked magic. I think that the differences between the manifestations of the Sidhe and Mel's black shadows may be down to the former, as a fairie race, doing what comes natural, while Mel is working the magic to produce something unnatural and temporary.

True - but only if we assume Mel is (or was, at least...) human.

I think we can be sure that what we see from her is a glamour, so who or what she really is, is still open.

[Mace Cooterian]

That would fit more for Jon, which is what I thought.

Maybe Renly felt the cold because his death was moments away? Did Catelyn feel the cold as well?

Catelyn's end of life was a little more complicated. It starts with an arrow to back and she senses "her back was on fire". After Robb takes the final arrow, she sort of goes mad and starts ripping at her eyes. Ultimately, they slice her neck and she does sense cold. But this is presumadely the life draining out of her body.

Presumably it was the cold of the shadow-blade.

BC. The sense of cold was prior to the shadow blade and Renly felt it "puzzling". At least this is how I intrepreted the reading.

[Black Crow]

True - but only if we assume Mel is (or was, at least...) human.

I think we can be sure that what we see from her is a glamour, so who or what she really is, is still open.

Indeed much discussed on many a thread, with a certain concensus that she is or was human but is now glamoured and won't be a pretty sight if (or rather when) the spell is broken. I think the major unanswered question is not whether she is ancient or dead or both, but whether she herself is actually aware of her true condition.

[Melifeather]

Maybe that's why WW's use wights to target the kill so that they (WW) can continue to exist???

This is an interesting thought. Melisandre needed to draw life out of Stannis to create the two shadowbabies. Both shadowbabies were shadows of Stannis. Both were fire magic, a by product of fire is smoke. The shadowbabies have properties like smoke, swirling and taking shape and then dissipating.

If the White Walkers are created from the lives of Craster's sons, the life is drawn from those children to create the light or ice babies. Could it be that the whole lives of those babies are used up and thus the ice babies have a more substantial life? The by product of ice magic is ice. The White Walkers/ice babies have properties like ice, and dissipate into swirls of mist and melt into water puddles.

I think we've fallen into a trap of opposites here. Why can't everyone be accessing the same magic while using it differently? Just because some seem to be associated with "ice" and some with "fire" doesn't mean they are all coming from some polar opposite life forces. What's the word for that, manicheistic?

It's the song of ice AND fire, not ice vs fire. We all make the assumption of opposition, but maybe the point is the synthesis. This would be the symbolic significance of Jon's parentage, and would underscore the foolishness of fundamentalists like Mel.

I, for one, dont see the white walkers being anything more than earth bound creatures doing their thing, subject to the same fallibilities of judgement and perception as anyone, Attributing their powers to their gods as wrongly as anyone else.

As long as grrm stays true to his feud ex machina statement then no "source" of magic will ever be revealed in the form of any being, which means no one will be sitting atop the magic hierarchy, giving some to one side or some to another.

I think you nailed it with the bible comparison or the Greek pantheon comparison. Grrm uses the unreliable narrator form to give us a human - i.e. flawed - perspective. So we get legends in the form of history, and the reality is probably more down to earth. Like Sams reference to tales of knights thousands of years before there were nights. So basically it's like we'll get the evidence of a god being active, like krakens taking down more ships or the dead rising, and we'll get hints of some supernatural cause, we will even get pointed in certain directions with some side seeming more legit than others, and we will get plot resolution, but we will never get the answer.

I don't think I'm "trapped" with opposites. I'm going off the assumption that ice and fire are drawing from the same magic source and utilizing it with different elements. If its the same magic, one side cannot be greater than the other.

The commonality of magic is something we've discussed much and more on this thread (to coin a phrase) and we've also discussed the differing concepts of natural magic and worked magic. I think that the differences between the manifestations of the Sidhe and Mel's black shadows may be down to the former, as a fairie race, doing what comes natural, while Mel is working the magic to produce something unnatural and temporary.

As to the Song of Ice and fire, that's a matter open for interpretation. There is indeed a popular school of thought which holds that it relates to the two being brought into harmony; much favoured by those he believe that R+L=J and that as both Targaryen and Stark Jon Snow embodies both Ice and Fire. On the other hand song is also used in Martin's World as a metaphor for conflict. When Sam and Gilly are discussing what to name Dalla's son, Gilly points out that he was born with swords singing around him and they settle on Aemon Battlesong. In that context the Song of Ice and Fire may indeed be the Battle between Ice and Fire - although ultimately it could be both.

It seems logical that ice magic should be equal to fire magic. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that there will be someone equal to Melisandre on the side of ice. If it isn't Bloodraven or Bran, then its Jon. We suspect that Melisandre isn't exactly human, but a human that was given to fire and perhaps even reborn through fire. She doesn't need to eat, her "faith" sustains her. Jon, I suspect, will experience in similar fashion, a rebirth in ice. He isn't going through this willingly, as I suspect Melisandre hadn't either, but he will embrace it just the same.

[Mace Cooterian]

Catelyn's end of life was a little more complicated. It starts with an arrow to back and she senses "her back was on fire". After Robb takes the final arrow, she sort of goes mad and starts ripping at her eyes. Ultimately, they slice her neck and she does sense cold. But this is presumadely the life draining out of her body.

BC. The sense of cold was prior to the shadow blade and Renly felt it "puzzling". At least this is how I intrepreted the reading.

@Black Crow:

I've read it again and I'm coming away with a totally different opinion. Renly feels the cold one hearbeat before the shadow-sword comes slicing through his throat.

I bow before your omnipotent wisdom...... :bowdown:

[wolfmaid7]

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

So i was looking at Quaithe's prophecy to Dany ,and i can't help but wonder if it is a sequence of things to come in a particular order,every time i've seen "pale mare" it always speaks of some type of disease out outbreak ( greyscale?) that will be alot of people dead so it seems plausible the Others might want some of that action. What do you guys think?

[Melifeather]

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

So i was looking at Quaithe's prophecy to Dany ,and i can't help but wonder if it is a sequence of things to come in a particular order,every time i've seen "pale mare" it always speaks of some type of disease ( greyscale) that will be alot of people dead so it seems plausible the Others might want some of that action. What do you guys think?

Pale mare = bloody flux

Kraken = Victarion

Dark flame = Moqorro

Lion = Tyrion

Griffin = Jon Connington

Sun's Son = Quentyn

Mummer's dragon - Aegon

Perfumed Seneschal = Master Illyrio

All prophecies Daenerys witnessed in the House of the Undying.

The tidbit to remember is, why should we believe Quaithe is on Daenerys side?

[Frey family reunion]

Pale mare = bloody flux

Kraken = Victarion

Dark flame = Moqorro

Lion = Tyrion

Griffin = Jon Connington

Sun's Son = Quentyn

Mummer's dragon - Aegon

Perfumed Seneschal = Master Illyrio

All prophecies Daenerys witnessed in the House of the Undying.

The tidbit to remember is, why should we believe Quaithe is on Daenerys side?

I always wondered if it should have read: Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the Others. Also not 100% sure that the pale mare isn't Viserion.

[Bellatrix Stark]

Catelyn's end of life was a little more complicated. It starts with an arrow to back and she senses "her back was on fire". After Robb takes the final arrow, she sort of goes mad and starts ripping at her eyes. Ultimately, they slice her neck and she does sense cold. But this is presumadely the life draining out of her body.

I wasn't talking about Catelyn's specific death, but about Renly's and whether or not she felt the same cold the moment he did..

[Mace Cooterian]

I wasn't talking about Catelyn's specific death, but about Renly's and whether or not she felt the same cold the moment he did..

In that case, I would say yes; they felt the cold as life was draining out of their bodies. Renly felt his prior to a heartbeat and Catelyn felts her's after the heatbeat. But at this point; I think it's a matter of splitting hairs.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Crackpot.

WW are WW North of the wall as its cold enough for them to take corporeal form. South of the wall they must be summoned and appear as Mels Shadow Babies. The life force use to create the shadow opens a mini portal to faerie to let something through.

Crackpot extrapolation.

This means a massacre at the wall is required to open the portal big enough to let the massed hordes of WW through.

Crackpot super extrapolation.

Ice & fire are Mance & Mel. We already know they are in cahoots, hey have each engineered getting their,respective forces to the wall. And I think possible there may even be some speculation that Mel provided the red silk to sew mances clock (or I may have imagine that?)

The one problem with this is that the Wall/the North and all that jazz are no where in Mel's thoughts until AFTER Davos brings Aemon's letter to Stannis' attention*

*Two addenda:

1) she does see in her fires the Black Brothers getting massacred at the Fist, but she seemingly has no interpretation of what it actually is, likely believing it to be a corrupted version of Stannis leading an army against a foe that surrounds him

AND

2) While I don't think this is the case (I am quite anti-Mel biased and think that she's a bumbling buffoon of a stupid idiot who deserves to get boiled in the cracked pot, so yeah...), I do admit that there is one possible way that Mel did know about all the Wall stuff before hand. The events as I would see them unfolding in this particular case are that she sees her in fires what will/is happening, and knows that Stannis needs to go up there, but she also sees Aemon's letter coming into Davos' possession, and through it and their journey North, Davos going on his particular path in the story, while Stannis gets to feel like it was his and his Hand's decision to go North instead of Mel manipulating events. As I said, don't believe it myself because I don't think that Mel is intelligent enough for that level of devious thinking and planning (ie I could easily see Tyrion or Sam, if he could develop the balls to do so, as doing something like this).

[Tyryan Lannister]

In that case, I would say yes; they felt the cold as life was draining out of their bodies. Renly felt his prior to a heartbeat and Catelyn felts her's after the heatbeat. But at this point; I think it's a matter of splitting hairs.

But I like my hairs nice and split

[Tyryan Lannister]

Pale mare = bloody flux

Kraken = Victarion

Dark flame = Moqorro

Lion = Tyrion

Griffin = Jon Connington

Sun's Son = Quentyn

Mummer's dragon - Aegon

Perfumed Seneschal = Master Illyrio

All prophecies Daenerys witnessed in the House of the Undying.

The tidbit to remember is, why should we believe Quaithe is on Daenerys side?

I wonder... Quaithe says "Beware all these cryptically spelled out dudes", seemingly implying that Dany needs to be warned that they are coming. But is it so much a warning of bad omens, a warning of good warnings, or a mixture of both?

I'm thinking a mixture of both, spelled out bell curve type order with the middle of the curve being those whom she should take into her council and befriend (while still being wary of them). With this we get:

DANGER WILL ROBINSON: Pale Mare (flux), Perfumed Seneschal (Illyrio, Vary, Reznak, or who knows who else)

I WOULDN'T DO THAT IF I WERE YOU: Kraken (Vic and/or Euron), Mummer's Dragon ((f)Aegon)

KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE: Sun's son (Quent), Dark Flame (Moqorro)

AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER: Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (JonCon)

And I'd say the importance of the pairings is that the first two groupings are things that will only bring death and destruction and hinder her, while the latter two could be very beneficial is used correctly, with the differences inside the two groups being that PM, PS, L, and G will bring their outcomes quite deliberately, while K, MD, SS, and DF will provide their outcomes accidentally--which we already have had happen with Quentyn, who i believe has helped Dany's overall cause of getting to Westeros and whatever it is that she will do there by accidentally setting the dragons on the city (and all the extra bits that are now coming with that, ie Tatters joining Barry, she still has two Dornish knights in her possession, etc.)

[wolfmaid7]

I always wondered if it should have read: Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the Others. Also not 100% sure that the pale mare isn't Viserion.

As i reread that little part Q personified the pale mare as a (her) the only analogy to that i saw was the girl who Mel saw coming to Jon i forgot her name.

[Tyryan Lannister]

As i reread that little part Q personified the pale mare as a (her) the only analogy to that i saw was the girl who Mel saw coming to Jon i forgot her name.

Alys Thenn nee Karstark

[Mace Cooterian]

2) While I don't think this is the case (I am quite anti-Mel biased and think that she's a bumbling buffoon of a stupid idiot who deserves to get boiled in the cracked pot, so yeah...), I do admit that there is one possible way that Mel did know about all the Wall stuff before hand. The events as I would see them unfolding in this particular case are that she sees her in fires what will/is happening, and knows that Stannis needs to go up there, but she also sees Aemon's letter coming into Davos' possession, and through it and their journey North, Davos going on his particular path in the story, while Stannis gets to feel like it was his and his Hand's decision to go North instead of Mel manipulating events. As I said, don't believe it myself because I don't think that Mel is intelligent enough for that level of devious thinking and planning (ie I could easily see Tyrion or Sam, if he could develop the balls to do so, as doing something like this).

This sounds like a lot of Scotch talking to me. Plus, I think I saw a participle dangling somewhere in there.

[wolfmaid7]

Alys Thenn nee Karstark

Ha there is no wayyyyyy i would have remembered that.

[Mace Cooterian]

As i reread that little part Q personified the pale mare as a (her) the only analogy to that i saw was the girl who Mel saw coming to Jon i forgot her name.

...and I'm quite sure I saw at least two particples dangling in this one as well......

[Mace Cooterian]

I WOULDN'T DO THAT IF I WERE YOU: Kraken (Vic and/or Euron), Mummer's Dragon ((f)Aegon)

As they (whoever they are) would say...that is freakin golden.

I've read two posts on this thread in the past month that had me take pause for several minutes to compose myself. The one above is one of them; the other was @Tocc's about some Stark or Bolton messing around in the horse stable.

Can someone please tell me where you will find more laughs than this anywhere else on this forum?