Mace Cooterian Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think the difference is laid out plain via Aemon: Ice preserves, fire consumes... nuff saidWhere were you 20 minutes ago. I almost derailed this train...... :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Where were you 20 minutes ago. I almost derailed this train...... :bowdown:I was lurking in the shadows :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I was lurking in the shadows :devil:Any thoughts/comments on Renly feeling 'Cold' before the shadowblade split his shoulderblades?....and I hope it's something more than just feeling a breeze across one's cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Shoulder blades? Didn't he get it through the gorget/the neck? Can't remember, sorry if nitpicking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Shoulder blades? Didn't he get it through the gorget/the neck? Can't remember, sorry if nitpicking...Pick away...it was the gorget. But after we pick it we are still left with feeling of cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Loner... A Rebel Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Pick away...it was the gorget. But after we pick it we are still left with feeling of cold.just a thought - since a "shadow" is dependant on light of its existence, (basically the only way to see a shadow is to see it in comparison to the light) could the shadow itself be cold compared to the relative warmth of Renly's tent?just crack-pottery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Touching back on a post regarding still knowing the names of people 5000 years ago I wanted to illustrate a point by using the books of the Bible as an example. The Jesus in the New Testament is a sun god and the stories about him and his 12 disciples have origins in the stars, constellations and astrology. Just because these stories were written down thousands of years ago doesn't mean these were actual people in history. I think GRRM has attempted to recreate this same type of mythos in Westeros. I don't believe the characters from the Age of Heroes were intended to be actual historical figures. I would akin those stories to be no different than the Greek or Roman gods who are probably the same "Age of Heroes" mentioned in the books of the Bible, which were also terrible half human children.I don't expect the White Walkers to be anything more than the opposite force of what we've already witnessed on the "Fire" side. Either they are Ice priests or priestesses much like Melisandre, Moqorro or Benero, or they are white shadows much like the shadowbabies that Melisandre created. I think its a mistake to build them up into something more, because that would make the Ice side more powerful than the Fire side. Likewise, Coldhands is the flip side of Beric Dondarrion.I think we've fallen into a trap of opposites here. Why can't everyone be accessing the same magic while using it differently? Just because some seem to be associated with "ice" and some with "fire" doesn't mean they are all coming from some polar opposite life forces. What's the word for that, manicheistic? It's the song of ice AND fire, not ice vs fire. We all make the assumption of opposition, but maybe the point is the synthesis. This would be the symbolic significance of Jon's parentage, and would underscore the foolishness of fundamentalists like Mel. I, for one, dont see the white walkers being anything more than earth bound creatures doing their thing, subject to the same fallibilities of judgement and perception as anyone, Attributing their powers to their gods as wrongly as anyone else. As long as grrm stays true to his feud ex machina statement then no "source" of magic will ever be revealed in the form of any being, which means no one will be sitting atop the magic hierarchy, giving some to one side or some to another. I think you nailed it with the bible comparison or the Greek pantheon comparison. Grrm uses the unreliable narrator form to give us a human - i.e. flawed - perspective. So we get legends in the form of history, and the reality is probably more down to earth. Like Sams reference to tales of knights thousands of years before there were nights. So basically it's like we'll get the evidence of a god being active, like krakens taking down more ships or the dead rising, and we'll get hints of some supernatural cause, we will even get pointed in certain directions with some side seeming more legit than others, and we will get plot resolution, but we will never get the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 just a thought - since a "shadow" is dependant on light of its existence, (basically the only way to see a shadow is to see it in comparison to the light) could the shadow itself be cold compared to the relative warmth of Renly's tent?just crack-pottery...That's not crack-pottery its spot on. It's basically what Mel tells Davos when he accuses of her of inconsistency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 The White Shadows do seem more real, or existing in corporeal form. Maybe the advantage they (White) have over their black counterparts is that they live or exist in both the faerie realm and that of man; special thanks the wall itself. Another way to put this is that the white and black shadows are indeed the same. However, the white shadow has the advantage of living north of the magical hinge of the world and the use of cold in order to achieve corporeal form. When Sam slays a WW it “shrank, puddled and dissolved away”…..”in twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a white fine mist”. This sounds a lot like what happened when the black counterpart killed Renly. From ACoK, Catelyn IV: “his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something queer” and then later “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there….”What caught my eye is the fact that Renly feels the Cold before the black shadow plunges the shadowsword into Renly’s back. I wonder if that is the same cold than Jon felt prior to the fourth knife??? Oh that's a great thought, Mel having said whatever shadows she births at the wall would be terrible, she could easily have gotten...can't remember the name of Davos' son...to bang her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellatrix Stark Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Oh that's a great thought, Mel having said whatever shadows she births at the wall would be terrible, she could easily have gotten...can't remember the name of Davos' son...to bang her.Devan? That little baby? Now THAT is some real crackpot. :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaoftheCanals Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Any thoughts/comments on Renly feeling 'Cold' before the shadowblade split his shoulderblades?....and I hope it's something more than just feeling a breeze across one's cheek.Just regular symptom of dying? I can imagine that losing a lot of blood quickly could make you feel cold... I never thought to look anything behind it, but then again, maybe I should've...Edit: Nevermind, just read the quote more thoroughly and saw that he feels cold before he gets stabbed. That is queer indeed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Loner... A Rebel Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Just regular symptom of dying? I can imagine that losing a lot of blood quickly could make you feel cold... I never thought to look anything behind it, but then again, maybe I should've...I think he felt cold BEFORE he lost any blood.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Pick away...it was the gorget. But after we pick it we are still left with feeling of cold.Yep, and it's a good question.I dunno... the shadow assassin, once set loose and separated from the light becomes cold, as death that it brings with it? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Any thoughts/comments on Renly feeling 'Cold' before the shadowblade split his shoulderblades?....and I hope it's something more than just feeling a breeze across one's cheek.Never really put much thought into it... the thing that comes to mind is the moment at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl when Barbossa becomes mortal again and says, "I feel... cold" as his new bullet wound starts to bleed out... that it's just a loss of sensation due to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think he felt cold BEFORE he lost any blood....yes, BUT... the shadow is basically death incarnate, and death by any means outside of through fire is almost always associated with the cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellatrix Stark Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Never really put much thought into it... the thing that comes to mind is the moment at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl when Barbossa becomes mortal again and says, "I feel... cold" as his new bullet wound starts to bleed out... that it's just a loss of sensation due to deathThat would fit more for Jon, which is what I thought.Maybe Renly felt the cold because his death was moments away? Did Catelyn feel the cold as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Loner... A Rebel Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 And now for something completely differentIn the story of the knight of the laughing tree - Howland Reed (assumed) is on the God's Eye - where nobody seems to go ever - shown by being one of the few (maybe THE only) place south of the neck that has Wierwoods) and emerges some time later from that sacred land to the tourney at Harrenhal...My question - could Reed be hiding more than we think? Could he be the Heren/Harla figure - gone to a Faerie realm for a "short" time to reemerge into a distant furture (from where he left at least)? Do we know anything about Howland Reed before Harrenhal OTHER than that he went to the God's Eye?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 That would fit more for Jon, which is what I thought.Maybe Renly felt the cold because his death was moments away? Did Catelyn feel the cold as well?Presumably it was the cold of the shadow-blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chequered Raven Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 just a thought - since a "shadow" is dependant on light of its existence, (basically the only way to see a shadow is to see it in comparison to the light) could the shadow itself be cold compared to the relative warmth of Renly's tent?just crack-pottery...Yes, I would say something like that might be the reason. In reality, a shadow comes into existence if something blocks the light. If you stand "inside" this shadow, it's not only less bright but also less warm.So if this shadow is created by magic, the temperature-gap may be much bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Crackpot.WW are WW North of the wall as its cold enough for them to take corporeal form. South of the wall they must be summoned and appear as Mels Shadow Babies. The life force use to create the shadow opens a mini portal to faerie to let something through. Crackpot extrapolation.This means a massacre at the wall is required to open the portal big enough to let the massed hordes of WW through.Crackpot super extrapolation.Ice & fire are Mance & Mel. We already know they are in cahoots, hey have each engineered getting their,respective forces to the wall. And I think possible there may even be some speculation that Mel provided the red silk to sew mances clock (or I may have imagine that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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